Pre-load front side?

[yomama]

Last year when I met Patrice at SES, I learnt that pre-loading (doing the Egyptian) my shoulders was key for a successful heelside. How about the toeside? Is there such a thing as pre-loading for toeside?

Also before entering the frontside, is the weight slightly on the back leg? This is what I observed on Opus 2 and 3 but I can be wrong. However, if this is the case, why is it so?

Thanks !!

Peter

[harald]

Hi Peter,
What do you mean by pre-loading the shoulders? Is it the same that twisting (or rotating) the shoulders just before you start turning the board? When we are out running we try to observe each other and comment on technique. One of my pals is counter rotating, especially on the toe side, meaning he turns the board, but keeps the shoulders 90 degrees to the board or even the back shoulder pointing against the tip so he is always looking down the fall line. One tip to unlearn this and rotate is to let the front shoulder follow through during the turn or even start by rotating the shoulder just before turning. If that is what you mean I think you should preload also in front side turns, but I am still only a novice so I would hear the opinion of the experts.

With respect to distribution of weight I think the weight should be even on both legs between the turns and on the forward leg to make the tip grip when entering the frontside, but again, let the experts talk.

[Rietzschel]

Hey Guys,

This is an interesting subject. I´m also curious what ´pre-loading´ is, because my heelside could use a little more EC-technique.

Something else Harald, how about shifting hips and shoulders forward (when initiating) and backward (when ending) during a turn, although I´ve learned that´s more a racing technique.

Looking forward for more reactions.

Greetz

[raphael]

I think you're talking of pre-rotation.

Trying to un-learn may counter rotation i discovered this:
To be sure to carve on the backside (heel turn) i have to turn my upper body towards up-slope. This is not very natural at first, but it became easier when i tried to always point my eyes (and face) at the center of the turn. So my heelside turn always begins with a strong rotation, and i strongly involve in a carve instead of a skid. But the same is not so efficient in the toe-side. Because in natural position i'm already pointing at the center of the turn.

I found two solutions:
-when backside i keep my unatural rotated position, so i have the largest angle to rotate in the other sense to initiate the toe-side turn.
-when initiating the toe-side turn make the rotation strong but progressive.

Putting these 2 together made me progressively try to make less rotation either frontside or backside, and try to make the rotation very progressive. Wich means, during linked turns i try to make the minimum mouvements with my upper body, so there is no other forces than my little rotation before the turn, wich continues during first part of the turn.

All this said, i still can't make full laid down turns

[harald]

Technique and riding style is difficult to describe in words. I read the text once more and took another look at the very instructive videos in the "Technique" coloumn on this website. Your questions are answered there. In the basic frontside turn you see that turn is initiated with a rotation in the shoulders, weigth evenly distributed on both legs. You will see that the front shoulder is following the direction of the turn.
[Raphael wrote]
This is not very natural at first, but it became easier when i tried to always point my eyes (and face) at the center of the turn.[/quote]
Yes, that is what J & P says, always look at where you are going.
[Rietzschel wrote]
Something else Harald, how about shifting hips and shoulders forward (when initiating) and backward (when ending) during a turn, although I´ve learned that´s more a racing technique.
[/quote]
I am not certain of what you mean by shifting forwards, but if you mean following the direction of the turn with the shoulders and hips, it is exactly what is shown in the demo videos. Also when you look at the videos and read the text you will see that the rotation is stopped by edging with equal weight on both legs. Using the hips in that case means counter rotating, unless you rotate the shoulders in order to go into the next turn directly.
Last year it was a lengthy discussion about almost the same issue in another thread. My conclusion is to go back to J & P's instruction videos. That is simpler than trying to explain in words what's going on.

[kjl]

Last year when I met Patrice at SES, I learnt that pre-loading (doing the Egyptian) my shoulders was key for a successful heelside. How about the toeside? Is there such a thing as pre-loading for toeside?

Peter

Hey, Peter! You doing the SES this year?

I understand your question because he made me do the same thing . I believe "pre-load" may be a misnomer, as it implies that you are doing some separate task (the pre-load) just prior to initiation of the heelside turn, when really the "Egyptian" pose with your shoulders parallel to the board is the position you should be in during your entire toeside turn.

i.e. there are two upper body/shoulder positions - 1) fully rotated heelside and 2) fully rotated toeside. You ride in position #1 throughout your heelside turn and then to initiate your toeside turn you rotate to #2, and vice versa.

When Patrice tells you and me that we need to do the Egyptian more, I think he is basically saying that our position #2 is not rotated enough. But since your #1 position is already rotated enough (mine is not, but I have seen your 2-hands-on-the-ground-heelside!), there is no extra pre-load or anything you need to do just prior to the toeside turn.

[fivat]

I believe "pre-load" may be a misnomer, as it implies that you are doing some separate task (the pre-load) just prior to initiation of the heelside turn, when really the "Egyptian" pose with your shoulders parallel to the board is the position you should be in during your entire toeside turn.

Yes about the misnomer! But about the "Egyptian" pose, it's not a position you should be in during your entire toeside turn, but at the end of the toeside turn in result of a progressive rotation of the upper body. If you do it well, it helps a lot (with the push-pull work in the legs) to initiate the full laid heelside turn.

When Patrice tells you and me that we need to do the Egyptian more, I think he is basically saying that our position #2 is not rotated enough.

Yes, at the end of the turn. Your eyes should be watching above the left shoulder if you are regular, right shoulder if you are goofy. One has to concentrate to avoid the instinctive "skier" position.

But since your #1 position is already rotated enough (mine is not, but I have seen your 2-hands-on-the-ground-heelside!), there is no extra pre-load or anything you need to do just prior to the toeside turn.

Indeed, there is nothing "special" to do, the heelside position is more "natural" in the sense that the shoulders are facing the board nose ("skier" position).

Patrice Fivat

[kjl]

But about the "Egyptian" pose, it's not a position you should be in during your entire toeside turn, but at the end of the toeside turn in result of a progressive rotation of the upper body. If you do it well, it helps a lot (with the push-pull work in the legs) to initiate the full laid heelside turn.

Oh! I think I had it wrong then. I had understood that you went all the way from rotated-heelside to rotated-egyptian-toeside before beginning the toeside turn. I thought that it was the completion of this maneuver (as you stop rotating your upper body in relation to your legs) that transferred your upper body's angular momentum to the legs and board, to be timed with the initiation of the turn...

So... going back the Peter's question - is there a progressive rotation throughout the heelside turn as well, or do you stay rotated throughout the turn?

[yomama]

Thanks all for answering my question on the frontside which is ironically my weak side

Ken,
I will not be going to SES this year. I guess you are going to SES *and* Zinal?

Have fun carving to all.

Peter Vu

[fivat]

So... going back the Peter's question - is there a progressive rotation throughout the heelside turn as well, or do you stay rotated throughout the turn?

Yes, a progressive rotation (that can be done more or less quickly, depending on turn radius, etc.) from the "Egyptian" pose (the board is on the toeside edge) to the "skier" pose at the end of the turn (heelside edge).

Peter, when do you visit us?

Patrice Fivat

[raphael]

For me "progressivness" is what is difficult to achieve.

[skywalker]

Hi,

I think, in fact der is some kind of pre-load. It can be seen best before Pat's heelside posing-turns. He does a tiny little frontside first to -- well -- pre-load the entire system. The board is turned in the opposite direction and so is the upper body. It may be misnoming, because the pre-load belongs to the end of the turn before, but IMHO it remains pre-load.

[yomama]

Hi Patrice,

I *might* be visiting my in-laws who live in the suburb of Paris in early March. This could be an opportunity for me to do a quick trip to the Mecca of EC: Zinal.

Is March a good time to visit?

Peter

[fivat]

Is March a good time to visit?

It's perfect: tons of snow and excellent conditions!

Come in the beginning of the month: there is less people on the slopes. Moreover at the end of the month, I could go to Canada (Whistler, etc.) for freeriding

Patrice Fivat

[Rob Stevens]

A guy I know does the 'Egyptian". It is a position where the front arm is extended, down in the elbow and up at the hand. The back arm is up at the elbow and down at the hand giving a profile much like a typical side-view Egyptian pictograph. The "pre-loading" referred to could be the weight-forward position this style of "arm-wanking" puts you in. People hold their arms in different ways, causing different effects. This is one of them. You could start a turn like this, but it won't finish one very well.
The neutral arm position I see in EC allows for a more centered stance and balance which promotes smooth, unwavering carves.
Any fore and aft movement should be from the board "advancing" and "retreating" under your center of mass (yer guts, that is or COM). The upper body moving towards the tip to start and to the tail to finish is too big a body move to be efficient. The highest performance turn I can think of positions the COM over the front foot to start, has the board move forward in the line of travel until weight is equal on both feet and continue advancing until the end of the turn when your COM is over your back foot. In the transition from edge to edge the board "resets" by retreating to it's start position with COM over the front foot.
On another note: Patrice. Don't go to Whistler in March. The snow right now is brutal there and much better here in the Alberta Rockies (Lake Louise, Sunshine Village, Nakiska, ect...). Send me an email and I can point you in the right directions. Lots of people to stay with, free lifts and some hard carving.
Finally: Do you know where a guy could get a copy of "Nuit de la Glisse"? It's a film I rode on back in '91 with Serge V, Bertrand Denervaud and a couple of other guys named Fritz and Martin. I've never seen it and would like to as it was shot about a year after I got into hardboots. Classic, old-school, narrow-stance (12 inces I think)"Vitelli Turns" by the whole crew.