About test TD2

[nils]

Well Michelle ( hi Michelle!) and Fin are aware of the problem! Fin says that we should try using cant ! We think the bails need to be stronger! Maybe would be worth asking for a special stonger bail for those riding flat. If we are enough, Fin might consider making that special bail for us.

Jacques will be able to provide all the details from the steel he is using on those stronger bails, so might help.
I'm starting a poll so we know how many people would be interested!

nils

[harald]

Hi,
Based on Patrice's advice, I have just ordered one pair of TD2s. Till now I have used F2 Race Titaniums with no problems. I am in the 78-80 kg class, so after reading this, maybay I have bought me a problem that I have not had till now. So I am in the market for stronger bails. All those expenses for maybe carving a little bit better Sounds silly but equipment freaks are. (I will not tell of all the money I have spent of various kinds of sports gear, such as windsurfing stuff).

[pokkis]

Now when everybody is looking for stronger, non-bending, bails for TD2s (due base is stronger than other bindings, these might bend, yes) is there any difference between step-in version and bail one ?
OK i naturally see that for those riding boots without possibility to step-in heels dont have option, but what about others ??
I've been riding with TD1s with bails several years without any probs but my angles were in 60+ range. Perhaps now with Swoard i might find new issues with my F2 step-ins, TDs are now sold away anyway.

[Michelle]

Hi guys

Since I have been asked to make a statement, I will try not to sound like an ad for the TD2 and be as unbias as possible.

I would have to say that the problem of bending bails will always exist depending on how much you lever the binding, no matter what binding you use. We have almost totally eliminated the problem to the general consumer. Fin has been talking with the Extreme Carving guys (Nils, Patrice, and Jacques) to alleviate the problem in their situation. The problem has to do not only with the weight of the person, but the forces they are putting on the binding. If a person rides low angles with no cant, the forces are elevated and depending on the weight, it is possible for the bails to give a bit. However, I would like to see who else is beinding our bails and what they are riding. Jacques said the only ones he has not bent are the F2 and the Foccia, but has only ridden them for a short time. The testing, to be fair, would have to be for the same amount of time with the exact same angles, conditions, etc. Another person riding the same angles but a lighter weight may not have the same issues.

Bottom line, in the 11 years Bomber has been making the binding, we have seen less than 1/10 of 1 % of broken/bent bails. There is a reason why Jacques, Nils, and Patrice call their company "Extreme Carving" - as István said, not everyone is able to ride like these guys

[SITO]

Hi Michelle!

As you said when you ride with flat bindings the forces are elevated, so it's possible the bent the bail not only of TD2, also others brand bindings.

But i ride with bindings flat, then with is the solution to alleviate the problem that Fin propose to ride with bindings flat????

greets Sito

[Hans]

Rode my TD2's with stepin and standard and also with modified Catek frontbails. Didn't measure the bending, but can't see it with my eyes. So, it's nothing that I worry about. Well, if they break, I will buy new ones from Bomber, no fuss. Never broke bindings, but never say never again.
Did even ride plastic raceplates from Burton which never broke, bend a little, nothing serious though. You only have to tighten them more, problem is solved then. Don't make an elephant of a mouse. I am interested in the modified bails if they are no more than € 50,-- (just to have spare ones if things happen on a holiday).

Greets, Hans.

[István]

I go along with Hans, it seems that the members of the Swoard team are great binding killers, but would be nice to have a pair of spare bails developed by Jacques.

Hans, how did you come to the EUR50 limit? Would EUR 52 make you not to buy? Of course we buy everything that we consider essential to our hobbies regardles of the price.

If there were too many unsatisfied customers of TD2, I guess related websites would be full of complaints. So I think bending TD2 is only a privilege of Pros.

Once I can get away from my office and have time to test my new gear I'll let you know my findings. Until then my fat ass stays in the office chair.


Cheers,

István

[Michelle]

Hi everyone!

One solution that we have right now is that we give you a 5 year warranty on our binding. If you guys have any problems, please email me and we will take care of it. I am not saying this is a fix to the problem, but we will always stand behind our products. Also, it helps to get the broken/bent parts back so that we can reverse engineer to make the product better.

As said before, we are also working with the Extreme Carve guys to get a fix to the problem.

hope that helps

Michelle

[Hans]

Hans, how did you come to the EUR50 limit? Would EUR 52 make you not to buy? Of course we buy everything that we consider essential to our hobbies regardles of the price.
István

Well, I have got to set a price. Seems to me reasonable as there are shippingcosts and taxes over a pair of bend steel strokes. And I have also got 5 years of warranty, and since the service of Bomber is okay, it would not be a problem if I ask new ones when I broke or extremely bend my bails. Since I have two sets front bails now (modified Cateks and standard Bombers), and two pair of bindings (Catek and Bomber) I think I have bindings for my whole snowboarding life.

Greets, Hans.

[pokkis]

I think TDs are originally designed for more higher angles than used for EC but problem could be also related to boots used by EC team ??
Has anyone with Raichles/Deeluxe have similar probs ??
I dont believe use of heel lift would solve prob due with low angles it does not help and lateral flex forces stay high too inspite lift !!

[rcrobar]

Hi everyone

IMHO .... using or not using cants is not the solution to the bail bending problem. Also, being a top Extremecarver like Jacques, Patrice and Nils is also not the main reason for the bending bails. IMHO .... the fundamental differences between what I will call 'Race carve' and 'Surf carve' TECHNIQUE is a big part of this bent bail issue.

Disclaimer. Please let me say that I do not want to start a style debate here. It is my feeling that the two styles are very close first cousins that have more common ground then differences.

The differences:

Racecarve:
-high stance angles
-narrower waist widths
-static upper body

Surfcarve
-lower stance angles
-wider waist widths
-rotating upper body

IMHO ... the bail bending occurs on the rear binding (first), primarily during a heel side turn. (I mean a normal free ride style, regular garden variety, heel side turn... not an EC turn.) In order to rotate your upper body, with low stance angles and hard boots, so that the shoulders are square to the nose of your board (like a racer) the hips, knees and ankles need to be able to move. This is where the leverage of a hard boot and softer metal bail create a problem. PS-I am not an engineer and my observations are based on 'kitchen physics' intuition.

When 'surfcarving' in hard boots with cants, the bails will still bend. The bending occurs, in the rear binding, but in the opposite direction when compared to being ridden flat.

I personally would buy the standard TD2's again in a heart beat. The buttery smooth ride and top quality construction outweighs the frustration of bending bails.

I would like to thank guys like Fin, Jeff Caron, Bob Jenny, Bruce Varsava, Sean Martin, Chris Prior, and John Gilmore, Jacques Rilliet, etc (I know the list is no where near complete) for their passion .... we ALL enjoy the BEST gear as a result of their efforts.

I sincerely hope that Bomber and Swoard work together to find a solution, as we consumers will continue to benefit from their hard work and passion.

Cheers
Rob

[harald]

This has been an interesting discussion with a very positive outcome. Bomber is coming up with a guarantee and is working on improvements together with Jacques. The explanations for the problem sounds reasonable and should be solid background for improving the bails. The only thing is that is about half a year before I can get out and try the new bindings that I have ordered, since I do not go to the glaciers or summer ski places.

[harald]

After having used the TD2 for a couple of months, my experience is the same as the others'. The bail at the back binding bends or stretches so the binding has to be adjusted almost continually. Although the screw system for adjustment seems solid, I find it a little bit awkward. The microadjustment of F2 Race Titaniums are simpler and more convenient. Otherwise the TD2s (with yellow ring) work fine. However, I have not the sensibility of Jacques, so I cannot say whether the TD2s offer a more fluent ride or better control. The essence is that the bindings work fine, but should have a stronger bail and more convenient adjustment system.