Binding Flexibility & EC Performance

[rcrobar]

Hi Jacques and Patrice

I'm hoping to get a little advice/guidance on what to do with regards to bindings; use my old bindings or start hunting for ones made of carbon.

If Bomber bindings are the stiffest bindings (I've never tried them) and the Blax Stealth II are the more flexible bindings (I've haven't tried these either) ... my guess is that my bindings are moderately stiff in comparison.

So my question(s) are ....

Are bindings like the Blax carbon (bend with the board base) paramount to EC success? Or will my bindings do for now?

Should I .... Replace bindings at all costs, because it makes a huge difference in the EC ride ... or ... use the old bindings for now because the improvement in the EC ride is subtle?

It seems difficult to find these carbon bindings. As a result I may try to have a portion of my baseplate, for my existing bindings, rebuilt out of carbon or a more flexible metal. (I've just started looking into this idea.)
Any suggestions-recommendations here on the use of a more flexible metal?? Which metal??

If the Northwave boots accepted a step in heel, would you use the Blax Stealth binding with the Intec step in heel?
Or .. is the traditional toe bail preferred over a step in?

Thank you
Rob

[nils]

Hi rob,
I have been confronted with the same problem with my swallowtail, using fin's race plate, that i found were too stiff for freeriding. I simply bought some 5mm strong neoprene (not the wetsuit kind, but the strong construction kind) and cut a piece that fits under the whole plate, with a cutout circle in the middle for screws... When tighten, the neoprene shrinks to 3 mm, and the result is a good vibration absorbtion, and a softer feel to the ride, still having good reactivity..
It costed me like 1 euro for each !

N.

[rcrobar]

I simply bought some 5mm strong neoprene (not the wetsuit kind, but the strong construction kind)

Hi Nils

Sounds like a great idea. I'm not familiar with construction neoprene, how is it different from the wetsuit stuff?

What type of store would sell the construction neoprene? Online perhaps?

Did you buy longer mounting screws, or do enough threads grab the mounting inserts?

Thanks for the tip.
Rob

[nils]

construction neoprene is just stiffer, has no bubbles or air cells.. its comparable to lets say a sole of a shoe. Just any hardware store will have it. Its used in construction to isolate concrete basement to wood pillar or structures. ALso used in bridge construction ( stronger kind) so that the main beams are just placed on the support pillar (allows dilatation and free movement)

N

[rilliet]

Hi Rob,

Bindings are very important in EC.
Too stiff, the rider can't move on the board (don't forget it is much wider than a race board) and this will make edge shifting much more difficult.

Too soft, the rider has not a good control of the board.

In fact, the couple "boot-binding" should allow the gravity center of the rider (the hips) to move backside-frontside on the width of the board when this one is flat on the snow. This allows the body to fall over each edge and so it renders the edge switching easy, without any body contorsion or arms gesticulating.

Are bindings like the Blax carbon (bend with the board base) paramount to EC success

Not at all!
They just have the good stiffness and let the board work better.

Should I .... Replace bindings at all costs, because it makes a huge difference in the EC ride ... or ... use the old bindings for now because the improvement in the EC ride is subtle?

Not at all. Keep your bindings. If they are not super stiff ones, I think they will do the job.
Question: what are your bindings and your boots?

If the Northwave boots accepted a step in heel, would you use the Blax Stealth binding with the Intec step in heel?
Or .. is the traditional toe bail preferred over a step in?

I would try the step ins. But I think they are stiffer than the bails.
As the Northwaves have very stiff shells, I suppose that step ins are too stiff. But I'm not sure...

Concerning Nils's idea with the neoprene:
I can tell you that rubber or neoprene will just tear under the high pressure in EC.
The original rubber pads under my FIN'S bindings lasted about... one day...
I replaced them with a piece of snowboard sole (polyethylene), that lasts for about 4 years and offers a good vibration absorbtion.

Jacques

[ablazespy]

About the dampening of the bindings I have got Burton raceplates on one of my boards and there is a set of dampening rubber included. white soft ones and black hard ones are you talking about the same dampening???? I use the hard ones(black) and think they are fine! is this oke or should I enhanche these bindings too?

[rcrobar]

Hi Jacques & All

Bindings are very important in EC.
Too stiff, the rider can't move on the board (don't forget it is much wider than a race board) and this will make edge shifting much more difficult.

In fact, the couple "boot-binding" should allow the gravity center of the rider (the hips) to move backside-frontside on the width of the board when this one is flat on the snow. This allows the body to fall over each edge and so it renders the edge switching easy, without any body contorsion or arms gesticulating.

Very interesting!! Is the combination of boot/binding flexibility a technical parameter rather than a personal preference?

Would this mean that a larger heavier rider would need a stiffer binding than a lighter rider, to achieve the same goal of desired optimum flex? In the same way way that the board size and flex should match the riders height and weight.

Does this have anything to do with why you chose to modify Finns’ bindings rather then using the Blax Stealth as Patrice has done?

Question: what are your bindings and your boots?

I've been using the Burton Physics bindings.
I use the toe bails, not the "hook" things ... this allows for more flex.
The bindings sit on two rubber pads that are 3mm thick ... you have a choice of hard or soft cushions. I use the much softer set. The toe bail and the soft rubber pad make them more flexible than the standard (with the toe bail) Burton Race bindings. I wanted step ins because my feet are large and I wanted to eliminate the bail part of the standard binding.

For boots I have been using Raichle 225’s. I have added the spring system that Raichle makes for the AF 700 (Raichle Accelerator Box). By switching between the hard and soft tongues, along with the spring adjustment, it seems like you can dial in the flex. I’m still very much learning about what works at this point:O)

The original rubber pads under my FIN'S bindings lasted about... one day...
I replaced them with a piece of snowboard sole (polyethylene), that lasts for about 4 years and offers a good vibration absorbtion.

Does this thin layer of Polyethylene have enough vibration damping ability to compensate for bindings with an aluminum skeleton, like the Burton race bindings? Or is it mainly for protecting the board?

Thanks again for your time.
Rob

[rilliet]

Hi Rob,

Is the combination of boot/binding flexibility a technical parameter rather than a personal preference?

Yes. The personal preference is when the board works well, so it is a technical parameter...

Would this mean that a larger heavier rider would need a stiffer binding than a lighter rider, to achieve the same goal of desired optimum flex? In the same way way that the board size and flex should match the riders height and weight.

Absolutely!

Does this have anything to do with why you chose to modify Finns’ bindings rather then using the Blax Stealth as Patrice has done?

Not at all. I use the Burton pads because they are much stronger and the Fin's base plates because they have this "magic" feeling that composite base plates have.

Patrice bought his Blax because he had broken all his Fin's bails. Finally, the Blax were as good as the Fin's or even better.
I tried to get one, but I still haven't got them...

I've been using the Burton Physics bindings.
I use the toe bails, not the "hook" things ... this allows for more flex.
The bindings sit on two rubber pads that are 3mm thick ... you have a choice of hard or soft cushions. I use the much softer set. The toe bail and the soft rubber pad make them more flexible than the standard (with the toe bail) Burton Race bindings. I wanted step ins because my feet are large and I wanted to eliminate the bail part of the standard binding.

That's all good. But be careful that when you totaly crush the rubber, the hard parts of the binding can't hit the board, or you will get strong vibrations during high pressure turns...
It's the main problem I got with my 99 Burton race bindings.

Does this thin layer of Polyethylene have enough vibration damping ability to compensate for bindings with an aluminum skeleton, like the Burton race bindings? Or is it mainly for protecting the board?

With my Fin's, polyethylen gave a better dampening than rubber, because rubber was totaly crushed and couldn't work properly...
I don't know it's behaviour with your bindings, but try first the original rubber setup and if it doesn't work, change.
I must say too that this polyethylen pad made a very good protection on our prototype boards, because the bindings are directly on the fiberglass layer.

I hope that with the new boards and their deck layer, I won't need my pads anymore.

Jacques

[Cuchullain]

Hi Jaques,

Like Rob I am interested in trying out E-Carving.

I may be interested in buying one of your boards but for now I would like to use what I have, which is a Burton FP-173, and UP-168 (Both are 200mm wide).

I am going to buy new boots and bindings for next season. I am thinking of buying Raichle AF700 boots, and a good set of solid bindings that will work for carving and also e-carving.

So my question is what available bindings on the market do you recommend ? Correct me if I am wrong, but the Blax-Stealth II doesnt seem freely available.

It's the main problem I got with my 99 Burton race bindings.

You mentioned in the previous email to Rob that you have Burton Race Bindings.

Do you use these bindings for e-carving also? If not what bindings do you recommend for me to buy that will be compatible with my Factory Prime, and Ultra Prime ?

Thanks,
John

[rilliet]

Hi John,

I've been right now on the Burton site to check their bindings.
I noticed that the dampening system has been completely modified. So the problem I got with the 99 model should be solved (that's why I modified them with the Fin's base plate (see photo on the technical pages)).

If I were you, I would take the RACE model.

The advantage of the bails (versus step ins) is that you can adjust the binding stiffness very precisely when you adjust the boots tightening.
The drawback is that they make the boot longer and break sometimes... But to me it's not really a problem because it's rare with the Burton models.

Jacques

[RicHard]

I've got FP173 and Burton Race bindings too.
I have to admit that such bindings have two points of failure:
the adjustments of the boots locking is not "analogic", it's "digital"; you have fixed positions and most of time you find a couple of holes very large and the next one too tight!...
Second one: to use the cant/lift disc on the rear binding is a must!!! You have no chance to use the rear bindign without it because you don't have the right disc for the screws.
Terrible.
Just this one. I'm thinking to move to other bindings but 3D is an obstacle and most of the 3D bindings are too stiff for such a "soft" board (not really stiff).
Ciao!
_RicHard

[rilliet]

Hi Richard,

I'm thinking to move to other bindings but 3D is an obstacle and most of the 3D bindings are too stiff for such a "soft" board (not really stiff).

Our EC boards will have standard ten holes 4x4 system...

Jacques

[Cuchullain]

Hi Jacques,

Thanks for your detailed response (Thanks RicHard also).
I think the Burton Race seems my best option also for e-carve.
Its always good to get a 2nd opinion.

John

[Cristan]

I know that you guys don't like stiff bindings, but you have to show appreciation on this work of art. I would post this on BomberOnline, but I don't want to disrespect Fin.

Olympic Series

[nils]

we don't "don't like" cateks or bombers, first thing is we never saw one in real here.. i admit the picture shows an amazing work of craftmanship...i assume bombers are the same quality.

Its just that they are so stiff, there is no way the board would survive the pressure, since the EC board is wider, and the torsion forces more intense, and both bombers and cateks have a round zone that is too centered to ensure repartition along the edge.. its the zone out of the binding that transmits in that case the efforts to the edges, and i believe on the EC model, it would make a cantilever effort that would break the board...
other reason is that the EC technique needs a lot of freedom for the body and boots ( lateraly especially..) those bindings are so strong, it seems they don't allow lateral movement...

amazing piece of work thu..!

Nils