SES 2004 report

[yomama]

Actually don't get too excited, this would be only a preleminary report. I will let Nils/Patrice write up the official report.

My brother (DrZone), my carving partner (Hiroshi) and myself met up with Nils/Patrice on Friday 20th and we head out to on a carving hill near Aspen named Ajax.

Unfortunately, it has snowed a lot the previous night and there were a lot of skiers (Ajax only opened to snowboarders two years ago) so we drove off to Snowmass where grooming was better. We basically had a private lesson from the Master himself.
I could not beleive that such a good carver like Patrice would patiently take time to stop carving and spend most of the afternoon coaching the lousy carvers that we are

Patrice taught us that a poor frontside would result in a bad backside. Even though I use the rotation technique, I realized to what point I did not rotate enough especially prior to the backside.

It was good to see how Patrice carve on a mountain different than Zinal. Even when skidding between bumps, he does it with grace.

The next day was SES opening day at Snowmass. It was overcast with snow showers the light was rather flat and I could not see anything with my cheap goggles. It was cold/snowy/flat light.....we could not see the bumps so it was hard to carve.
I am so used to the nice Californian weather that I am now a real weather-wimp
By the end of the day, I was complaining about the weather but instead Patrice/Nils said they had a great time !!!! I realized that I need to spend a lot more time in less than perfect conditions.

On Sunday, we were were greeted on with sunshine at Buttermilk. There were 60+ carvers and within one hour, the carving hill was reduced to a field of cookies . We are all in a very good mood thanks to the great grooming and hero snow. There were photo/video sessions here and there and of course that's where I messed up all my turns

On Monday yesterday, we could not join the SES because we had flights to catch in the afternoon but we managed to carve a Sunlight another local hill. It was great: sunshine and hero snow again.

What I learnt:

1) Extreme carving with linkded laydown back/frontside may be applicable only to a few steep hills like Zinal or "Slot" at Snowmass.
2) On a "normal" mountain, I followed Patrice and he push-pulled all the way down with only a few occasional laydown.
3) Patrice's speed is comforably reasonable without going too fast but he keep the same speed from to to bottom which is VERY challenging to me.
4) I have been doing push pull too but I realized that the way Patrice does it is A LOT closer to surfing and when I simulated what he did, the fun factor was multiplied by 10.
5) In addition to the push-pull, I worked a lot on adding more rotation to what I had. This adds tons of accelerations yet correcting a lot of mistakes that I used to force due to lack of rotation.
6) By combining push-pull + strong rotation, there were so much dynamic-acceleration that I could throw myself off balance even on the green slope.

Overall I learn so much just by trying to keep up with Patrice from top to bottom. THANKS Patrice/Nils !!!!!

Oh, Patrice and Nils said they also met with legendary surfer Mike Doyle. They said he is very gracious on his carving deck.

That's all for now folks. Hopefully DrZone can add some pix to illustrate the above soon.

Peter Vu

[StanChung]

Thanks for a great post, Peter. Any tidbits on hand positions or exercises we can do?

Stan

[drzone]

Sorry, I do not have any pics available at present. Too busy post vacation.
However, what I learned from seing Patrice at SES is that almost anyone can learn to lay it down, but...
The difficult part is to look smooth during transitions. Patrice is amazingly smooth in any terrain (steep, non steep, moguls, death cookies....). It seems that he can look relaxed and fluid regardless of terrain conditions. Much smoother and stylish than anyone I've seen there.
He does lay down much but oh so nice to watch. The last part of Stoke where they are just casually cruising is most revealing of this style.

PS, I had no idea that both Patrice and Nils were so hot looking for the women too!!!! All that time he has been hiding behind his goggles...

[István]

Peter,

Thanks for the great report. I've especially enjoyed points 1 to 6, confirming most of my thoughts and beliefs about EC.

I usually have a bad feeling during riding on non-perfectly groomed, not enough steep and sometimes too narrow slopes that I am clumsy, and pros could do the same linked and laid turns also in such conditions. At he same time I always think that it is impossible.... and I am usually left with the doubt.

So you put my self-assesment back to its normal place. I know I have to develop a lot, but my belief that what are on the videos can only be done in very good conditions is confirmed. I have to emphasis that I mean no disrespect to J P and N, they are all great carvers.

No more philosophical stuff, in a week time I'm leaving to Livigno for a week and expecting perfectperfectperfect conditions, so that I can EC freely.


Best wishes to you guys,

István

[yomama]

Hi Stan,

Could you be more specific on your goals vs. hands position? I am not sure I understand the question

Istvan,
I was indeed lucky to be able to follow Patrice in different slopes/conditions than Zinal and I was actually a lot more impressed by Patrice's skills-fluidity-smoothness in varied conditions.

When I first saw P&J videos, I thought I had to link laydown or EC at E-V-E-R-Y turns. The video can be misleading if you don't have a slope like Zinal. I tried to link laydown turns on blue slopes and killed too much speed.

In such conditions, Patrice would keep a steady speed, upper body steady yet rotating smoothly like a pendulum with strong/quick cross-under technique (oh, don't forget the up/down motion as well). He only throw in a laydown here and there to spill out the excess of speed when needed but even there, the speed remained the same.

I knew that push-pull was derived from surfing but I did not "see" it. Now I do!! Imagine yourself surfing on a small mushy wave, you would be using a lot of push-pull in order to keep up with the wave (read: keep the same speed) while surfing it (bottom +off the lip). Well same thing on a snowboard.

Sorry for being lengthy but it's only now that my slow-stupid brain got the real meaning of push-pull.

I can now die happy

Peter Vu

[StanChung]

Hi, Peter:

You're doing a lot of great explaining. I find it very helpful.

I should say from the start that I've just spent three days boarding with e-carve maestro, Rob Crobar. Nearly every run, I saw him fully lay out 8 to 12 e-carves in a row on a variety of terrain.

(You can tell a true e-carver by looking at his destroyed gloves. Rob puts Shoe Goo on his.)

Of course, at Big White, Apex, and Silver Star--the conditions are quite ideal. The western snow has been perfect this season, so Rob was in heaven, especially at Apex where the runs are steep and long.

Rob is a push-pull, surfer-dude. (You should see him on the Carve Board. If you were to look up "dynamic acceleration" in the dictionary, there would be a picture of Rob.)

Rob, Patrice, Jacques, and you make it look easy. Almost too easy. Part of my problem is that you guys "hide" everything you do in smoothness, so it's kind of hard for an intermediate like me to tell just how much hip turn, or hip "snap" is involved in generating dynamic acceleration and a strong edge.

1. When you do a front side, for example, where do you end up putting your hands to resist the natural tendency to lean over and bend at the waist?

2. And how do your hands move when in the middle of the transition as you are rotating?

3. Are you trying specifically to rotate your hips more than your shoulders? I find the hip rotation to be very effective. But how much do you rotate?

Patrice positions his hands at his waist. I found that to be very useful, but also found it confusing when trying to accelerate into a carve with my hands at my sides.

(By the way, keeping my hands still was a kind of breakthrough move for me. When I started to add the hip rotation--I made another breakthrough.)

Surfers use a great deal of hand and arm movement when they waggle; e-carvers keep their movements minimal. It's wonderful and, at the same time, a bit deceptive.

So I hope this post gives you some context on my question about hands and exercises. I'm at the stage where I still need to learn by *exaggerating* the critical movements in the e-carve.

Sorry, Peter, I hope I haven't totally confused you.

Stan

[Ray]

SES was just great.

Most importantly, it was nice to see that the most requested board at the bomber demo tent was no other than the SWOARD

[yomama]

Hi Stan,

Rob Crobar? Who's that guy? Sorry, I don't know this name...
Seriously, you are very lucky to carve with Mr. Smooth...I mean Rob!! I saw his video and he is quite an amazing EC/relaxed carver .

Rob is so good that I am now seriously thinking of buying that Carveboard which must be his secret training weapon. I am going to try to demo one tonight if it's not raining.

I am flattered to be compared to P&J but the truth is, I am barely worthy to shoe-shine their boots. I am still a humble student trying to learn from the Maestros. I relate more to the intermediates than to the pros that they are .

1. When you do a front side, for example, where do you end up putting your hands to resist the natural tendency to lean over and bend at the waist?

a) From the movies, you can see that J&P's knees are bent to the max *before* they initiate a turn. For example in the Extremedreamer at 0:20 you can see Patrice's back knee almost touching the front one (make sure your boots allow you to do this).

b) At this position, you are A LOT closer to the snow already and your hands are close to the snow too so you don't need to break at the waist.

c) Make sure you have enough speed coming into the turn so that you can lean in with good inclination

d) Do a one turn drill by starting one side of the slope then go *across* to pick up speed then do a frontside until you go UP the slope with the speed reduced to zero. Stay on the snow and verify your hands/hips/head position. Are they in the position that are similar to J&P still picture. If not make corrections accordingly.

e) During SES, I asked Patrice about the front side (it's my weak side !!). I told him that if I were to keep my weight distributed 50/50 on the boots then during a front side with the chest was facing the snow with the two hands down, then it is inevitable that physically I put more weight on the back foot. He said that it's true "but...." (hoh? there was a "but" )......"but he shifts his weight slightly forward to balance it out". BTW, this is not described on the website

2. And how do your hands move when in the middle of the transition as you are rotating?

a) Juuuuust before the apex of the turn (Apex = when the board is facing downhill) your hands should be very close to the snow or even touching the snow

b) At the apex, that's where you hands really touch the snow as illustrated on the still pictures of this website.

3. Are you trying specifically to rotate your hips more than your shoulders? I find the hip rotation to be very effective. But how much do you rotate?

You got it right on Stan. It's not the shoulders that turn, it's the hips. I personally think there is no harm in tyring to over-rotate on the heelside so that you can work on exagerating the movement as such

https://www.extremecarving.com/photos/01html/p9_01.html
(The above link is Patrice's heelside, two hands down on the snow).

and then de-rotate if you feel like it.

Sorry, English is not my first language and I hope it helps somewhat.

Peter
ps: Another good drill is to do an "S" and finish the "S" with a laydown either front or backside. Then, check your body/hands/arms/legs positions and verify they are correct. Oh, don't forget to look back for upcoming skiiers/jibers uphill prior to the drill. Good luck!!

[StanChung]

Great tips, Peter. Thanks so much.

Because of the new super hip turn my backside improved immediately. But my toeside is still my weak side.

When you ride with Rob, you tend to get very motivated to improve. Rob rides deceptively smoothly. He can lay it down at very low speeds because he generates so much dynamic energy. ie. he can really pump the flats like a surfer or skateboarder.

I look okay on the steeps, but on the flats, it's really hard to lay it out like Rob.

I really appreciate the tips. Tomorrow I'll go down low on the toe side and crank it over. I still think I'm missing something though. Do you remember anything you did *the first time* you went fully layed out on the toe side?


Stan

[cmachine]

Do you remember anything you did *the first time* you went fully layed out on the toe side?Stan

Hi Stan

Try to do it like a swimmer who starts with a "header??" into the water.

I mean like jumping in the water with your head first (no of course the hands come before the head). When you "dive" like this in the water, you also make a strong push with your legs first.

I hope this helps for starting with your first laid front side.

Olaf

[drzone]

Here's a sample of Peter on his last day at SES.

https://www.extremecarving.com/attachme ... 040223.avi
(right click and save on your hard disk)

This is him practising the Fivat/Egyptian style turns (if you look at his body, when his is finishing his front side and preparing to swing to the back side, he looks like an Egyptian painting). It gives a more dynamic feel to the movement.
This was done on an almost flat section (not even green run), with this technique, he actually accelerates in the flat so it seems.
No more laying down for him at all turns. Saving the lay down for the juiciest sections (steep and smooth).

For more info/comments, I'll leave that to Peter, cause I'm not good enough to comment past this.


"surf (walk) like an Egyptian..." goes the song...

[StanChung]

I think that Egyptian style *really* works on the toeside. I did it today with my hands down at my sides as well. And then I looked over my shoulder.

But the really great breakthrough came when I practiced hip turns on my skateboard.

You can really get the acceleration feel that way. The skateboard is a great training tool for me. I'm really beginning to understand now.

So, in conclusion, I improved the toeside a lot by imitating the surfing cut-back move while at the same time keeping my hands at my side.

Thanks a lot you guys.

Peter, you're looking effortlessly smooth. The board looks good, too.

[carvester]

Ses was truly an epic event with good weather throughout and excellent grooming. Wish i could have ridden with Vu and the gang
Much thanks to Nils and Patrice for the generous riding tips
James

[kjl]

From what I understand (and also from my experiences after Patrice gave me the tips on Saturday at Snowmass), the Egyptian toeside (overrotated, upperbody facing the toeside edge of the board) is not necessarily to improve the toeside, but to improve the heelside immediately afterwards.

That is, you overrotate your shoulders towards the toeside during your toeside turn, and then when you wish to turn heelside, you twist your upper body hard in the heelside direction until you are roughly facing the nose of your board. During this twisting motion, your body gains a lot of rotational momentum in the heelside direction, but it is completely localized in your upper body. At the moment you finish this twisting motion, some of the rotational energy gets transferred to your lower body and helps to pull the board around in the heelside carve direction (and it is also exactly at the moment that you transfer from your toeside to heelside edge).

Other things I noticed about this "twisting motion to lead into the heelside carve":

1) While twisting from Egyptian toeside to facing the nose of the board, it helped to finish the toeside carve tighter and more uphill.

2) During the edge transition sometimes the nose of the board went into the air. Sometimes the whole board went airborne. I like this

3) Entering the heelside turn immediately afterwards, I felt like the edge under my front foot's heel had more pressure than usual, and the heelside turn engaged quicker and with a shorter radius turn.


I have a question for the masters, though:

I don't actually like being fully laid out in the Egyptian toeside position. It hurts my back knee, and I feel less "graceful" than I do if I do an unrotated toeside, with one hand on the snow. I think my upper body is facing my boots (i.e. halfway between the nose and the toeside edge). Do you forsee any problems that I might have if I 1) push the board to a laid toeside while unrotated, 2) THEN fully rotate the shoulders to the toeside edge while pulling the board back underneath me, 3) twist to the nose and transition to heelside as normal?


p.s. It was great to finally ride with you EC guys (Patrice, Nils) at the SES - thanks for the pointers and letting me tag along every day. I was very, very impressed with your technique in substandard conditions, in particular the very soft, lumpy snow at Snowmass. You are much more graceful in real life than it shows in the movies. It is too bad you couldn't stay for the Arapahoe Basin day in Summit. You would have loved the West Wall there - the snow was much harder (perfect), and it was a little steeper than the Slot. Unfortunately only long enough for 6 or 8 turns, but awesome nonetheless, and probably perfect for fully laying out your turns.

p.p.s Nice to ride with you again, Peter! Pretty funny that we both ride in Tahoe but we both have to fly to Colorado to ride with each other. You in for a trip to the ECS next year?

[fivat]

Hi Ken!

From what I understand (and also from my experiences after Patrice gave me the tips on Saturday at Snowmass), the Egyptian toeside (overrotated, upperbody facing the toeside edge of the board) is not necessarily to improve the toeside, but to improve the heelside immediately afterwards.

Rotation (and in particular the "Egyptian" position) improves also the toeside because it increases the pressure on the edge at the end of the turn! The "secret" of extremecarving is to use this plus balance plus push-pull (= work with the legs)... Three factors!

I don't actually like being fully laid out in the Egyptian toeside position.

At start one feels a bit strange because it's unusual: one has to look over one's shoulder, and one is not looking straight like a skier. The carver has to concentrate on this the first days, but then it becomes automatic.

It hurts my back knee

Hmm, there must be something wrong in your setup or your binding angles. I will check this out when you come to the ECS '05

Do you forsee any problems that I might have if I 1) push the board to a laid toeside while unrotated, 2) THEN fully rotate the shoulders to the toeside edge while pulling the board back underneath me, 3) twist to the nose and transition to heelside as normal?

It will work, but it won't be as efficient as it can be in any condition (ice for example) and on any slope

Patrice Fivat

PS: It was great to ride with you at the SES. I was impressed by the way you have been used quickly to your Swoard!