SET UP !!

[codighel]

iT'S time for set up ! Finally the new board has arrived..new board,new bindigs..now i'm a bit confused.The board is a Virus 185 -18 center width , bindings are trench digger TI.Now,is there anybody who has confidence with canting and lifting whith those binding

[nils]

sell the board for a swoard ( joke:)

Since the board is narrow and you will have a race stance on it, it is a good advice to use canting and lift... I suggest you see the pages Jack Michaud wrote on bomberonline regarding settings etc ( www.bomberonline.com) it is good explainations on settings... Scott Firestone also wrote a monumental page with settings info ( www.alpinecarving.com). We EC'ers on wide board use no canting and lift with the lower angles... but i think its impossible on a narrow board.

Be aware than EC turns will not be as easy as on a Swoard with lower angles... especially the laid backside will be hard to achieve... but as we said many times... you can EC with any board, its just easier with a softer wider board

Nils

[codighel]

thank you...Nils,i'm cecking out as soon as possible!!Thanks again also the joke about the Swoard was funny....i'll buy one anyway...even if i am a racer more than an EC.. i'll try .

[tommaso2k]

sell the board for a swoard ( joke:)

Be aware than EC turns will not be as easy as on a Swoard with lower angles... especially the laid backside will be hard to achieve...

Nils,

i don´t want to understand my question in context of Swoard vs Virus and suitability of device for EC.

I just would be interested for my personal knowledge to understand why an EC backside is harder to achieve on a narrow board?

Cheers
Thomas

[pokkis]

If you have now Bomber TD's, your lifts and cants are pretty much according those what you have ordered. On TD's you can not adjust them pretty much at all, without getting extra base parts.
Or did i understood something wrong?

I have them and i ride them flat-flat, regardless board width or length.

[codighel]

Well,..i realized that there's not so much adjustments on cants and lift but i bought every kinda disks 3 degrees..0 degrees..6 degrees because i'm used to ride not flat.the problem now is that TD'S are very different from PHIOKKA PH1....(my older bindings)so basically now i have doubts.

[Hans]

Well,..i realized that there's not so much adjustments on cants and lift but i bought every kinda disks 3 degrees..0 degrees..6 degrees because i'm used to ride not flat.the problem now is that TD'S are very different from PHIOKKA PH1....(my older bindings)so basically now i have doubts.

It's very personal. I am very comfortable with 3 degrees disks in the front and in the back without canting if I ride stance angles above 55 degrees. Than I can widen my stance more when I use the disks.

My Swoard I ride flat. But my other boards I ride them with the former stance (3 degrees disks).

And this is a nice thing to play with TD2's on your deskcomputer:
http://www.alpinecarving.com/tmtd2/

Have fun with that Berserker, must be a hell of a board to play/ride with.

[István]

Well, actually you can play a bit with those cant discs. You can rotate them to achieve a combination of cant and lift.

I would start with the 3 degrees disk in the front and the 6 in the back.

Set it in a way that the lowest part of the cant disks point to the middle of the board. This will then mean a combination of a cant and lift for both feet.

This setting feels comfy for me on my Gladi with those high angles. The toe lift might sound strange, but it helps you to stay centered on the board when riding.

Of course, besides common sense it is also a question of personal preference, so try a couple of settings.


Cheers

[codighel]

Thanks Istvàn....your contribute is always very helpful...i'll try and i let you know!ON monday i'll go in the mountains to test it

[nils]

My remark was not on the S vs V... but more on narrow boards vs wide boards...

We developped wide boards when everyone was at 18-19cm because we wanted to lower the angles on the board and get rid of the canting and lift under the bindings. The rotation technique permits this and riding a 23 cm wide board with lower angles makes it possible to have a much easier backside with less egde slip and much more power under the boots available for gripping. The cost is you need to use the rotation technique and it can be hard for some to learn this style because it is not natural at once ( counter rotation is natural).

As always its not impossible with a 19 or 18cm board, it is just much harder to achieve because of the back leg position. Also riding with the board tilted vertically on the snow is almost impossible with a 18cm board, it is not designed for that and the grip in the extremities is lost usually when you do it.

We see than appart from us and pureboarding which also ride wider boards, there is very few people that seem to be able to achieve laid backsides. Pureboarding with its own style, and us with the EC style... its not a proof that its impossible otherwise, its a proof there is some facility with wider boards for it... and the trend that we see now with wider boards everywhere ( even F2) is also a proof that wide boards are good for carving and that quick edge to edge is not the only graal for alpine riding!! ( and that we were not so wrong!).. to put it in one word: easier.
Wider boards are easier to ride than narrow boards....and are as much performant in freecarving ( edge grip, ice hold etc...) what you loose in edge to edge speed you gain in easyness and comfort. We believe its worth the change for this reason ( we are not racers)

Another reason for the wide board is the painful position on the board with all the cantings and lifts on narrow boards... its not stable at low speed, its harder to do slip turns because you have less leverage... Since i am riding a wide board, i do not think of my board anymore and what edge is in contact like i had on my proton or Rossi... I tend to ride "looser" and comfortable, and we believe it is the solution for alpine cruising and performance free carving. I am glad to not have to concentrate anymore on not to catch an edge, feel pain in the knees because of the cantings and lifts, and feel twisted on my board anymore!

Hope this answers a few of the questions of why
Now everyone is free to ride in each style, each technique etc... this is the richness of alpine snowboarding !

Nils

[Hans]

Nice words Nils and also very true.

Now Codighel has to sell his new Berserker for a little price to me......

[codighel]

Nice words Nils and also very true.

Now Codighel has to sell his new Berserker for a little price to me......

Hey Hans....just two words about the Berserker.....:FORGET IT !

[nils]

a bit off topic: hans since u have many different boards it would be nice for everyone's benefit to have your feedback on the differences they have... grip, agility, dampness etc...
Same goes with people with different quivers, how/ when / why you change and what are advantages of different boards etc...

N

[skywalker]

Nils.

Sorry for that, but I have to...

[...]and riding a 23 cm wide board with lower angles makes it possible to have a much easier backside with less egde slip and much more power under the boots available for gripping.

Why?
Just for my understanding: Where is the physical and/or biophysical relation between "more power under the boots" and low binding angles?

[...]Also riding with the board tilted vertically on the snow is almost impossible with a 18cm board, it is not designed for that and the grip in the extremities is lost usually when you do it.

Why again.
What's the difference at the edge between a narower and a wider board, stated that they are built identical at all other parameters, even flex behaviour?

[...]We see than appart from us and pureboarding which also ride wider boards, there is very few people that seem to be able to achieve laid backsides. Pureboarding with its own style, and us with the EC style... its not a proof that its impossible otherwise, its a proof there is some facility with wider boards for it...

I fully agree with that!

[...]and the trend that we see now with wider boards everywhere ( even F2) is also a proof that wide boards are good for carving and that quick edge to edge is not the only graal for alpine riding!!

Sorry, I can't follow this argument. If this was logical, one had had to state at the end of the 90ies, that narrower boards are better, as everybody builds them

[...]to put it in one word: easier.
Wider boards are easier to ride than narrow boards....

Again I agree here, although even in this point som might disagree. For mee it's true at least at low speeds.

Another reason for the wide board is the painful position on the board with all the cantings and lifts on narrow boards... [...] I am glad to not have to concentrate anymore on not to catch an edge, feel pain in the knees because of the cantings and lifts, and feel twisted on my board anymore!

IMHO lift and canting should help one to be comfortable on his board. Of course you can use them to twist yourselve, but I don't know, why anybody would do that (except racers believing to become faster in this way)

Thanks a lot for your answer to tommaso2k, Nils. Although I'm not sure about the whys, maybe easyness is the answer, why wider boards are used, when fully laid down turns are achieved. Stability might be a further argument.

For me it's still almost impossible to explain. I feel, that fully laid down turns are easier to achieve with a wider board, but I do not why. I also feel, that wider boards usually are more stable, and that stability halps a lot. But after all I'm still confused about the whys.

skywalker

[nils]

Small few answers Jacques will maybe add a few of his own too

>Just for my understanding: Where is the physical and/or biophysical relation between "more power under the boots" and low binding angles?

well its more leverage on the tip of the boots than on the sides no? When u are with very high angles you are not applying pressures on the tip to bury edges but on the side of the boots...no? ( its a question really).. this is what i feel when i ride..

>What's the difference at the edge between a narower and a wider board, stated that they are built identical at all other parameters, even flex behaviour?

That is theorical because not one single board has the same nose and radius design than the wide boards such as our board for example... it would be nice to build one for test... from what i have seen now and tested, the narrow boards have a nose that is higher and is not usually designed to conduct the board in the turn when the board is vertical... it was the major flaw of the gladiator zylon i tried: the nose and tail lost edge grip when i was fully pushing during EC turns ( note: when the board was almost vertical)... the rest of the times the board had an amazing edge grip. So my "why" is theorical, yes, until we can compare two boards with same characteristics, vertically on the snow ( please do not jump on me arguing about the fact that i said the gladiator was bad vertically... its just not made for that!.. its like u ask a ferrari to do bumps its not made for that..)


>Sorry, I can't follow this argument. If this was logical, one had had to state at the end of the 90ies, that narrower boards are better, as everybody builds them

If everyone was riding alpine at the time, maybe, but the narrow boards were clearly last of a kind, because no one rode alpine anymore almost, and boards were only designed for racing, not freecarving ( appart from a few brands like virus and pogo, donek and prior maybe..) Everyone big brands was building narrow race boards, but we know where it was leading the market: self destruction.

as for canting and lift they are indeed here to help the rider find a comfortable position and optimize his performance on the board

Thnx for the debate its interesting
Nils