Heel Turn Problem

[Lele]

Hi everybody
I'm almost 10 year harbooter ryder. 5/6 years ago I purchase a Swoard to improve - and learn of course - ec technique properly.
Honestly - my impression - Ilearned to manage the p&p technique and basic ec turns, as well as laid down frontside turn.
The problem comes for me on the heelside, often on steep, icy tracks, tenere I try to start crossunder, as love ad I can, and after, rotatin' upperbody and hips, I put board on heelhedge, straightening progressively my legs
Problem appear by now, (at the begin of the second part of the turn) cause, while I stretch mg legs, I feel like my hips and my shoulder lose rotation, an - for sure - my hips start to open up, facing downhill and immediately board start to skid. I guess someone could tell me that at this point I should have already pulled the board to me on crossunder way, as I'm gonna facing the next turn...but, in this case I would ask you for a trick of mental chart to mantain hips and shoulder in plus position as long ad I want on laid down heel turn, almost without gettin' up. (As I can do on flat surface, usually at the end of the tracks).
I also wanna show you a picture that explain the proper heel side plus position. Bit I noticed weird marking the front knee rotation to explain how to rotate hips. Could you help me understand?

[pokkis]

You could take look here how it is done:

[Lele]

Ok thank you for the video.
I link another one and I encourage to notice a sort of "bridge" made by the rider during the turn, attempting - as he said in the video at second 30/36 - to keep the hip up.



Is it useful to mantain the waight on the edge?
Another question: is better to put weight on rear or front foot to reach and mantain stable the laid position?

[Arnaud]

is better to put weight on rear or front foot to reach and mantain stable the laid position?

Basically the weight should remains centered on both feet, but some minor corrections may be required: often it's better to increase a little bit the pressure on the front foot to avoid nose oscillation

[pokkis]

At beginning of turn, i put slight more pressure on front, after that i put weight to center and at end of turn i move it slightly back to get easier out of turn. Never get oscillation on my boards, but i have seen it.

[fivat]

Both writers above are right.
Actually there is really a change of weight from front to rear foot during the turn. But in the mind, you should not concentrate on this. It's better to think about being centered, so you keep good control, stability and fluidity.
It's what worked with me. But other tips can work depending on the riders. A good teacher must adapt to the students.
For sure, if you think too much you get bad results.

Ride more with the heart than the head.

Patrice Fivat

[Hans]

Lele, if that is the problem, too soon turning the hips facing downhill. Is your head also turning that way? Mostly the shoulders and hips turns the way where your head/eyes are looking into..... I have the same problem. Mostly it helps to think there is a crate of beer in the middle of the turn and keep on looking to that centre as long as you can. Hope this helpes.

[frunobulax]

Hi Lele,
I'm with Hans concerning the "your body goes where your head is facing" thing. As long as you look forward, into the turn, your body should follow your eyes. You should also make sure that your outward hand is in front of you and (if your inclination is high enough) sliding on the snow.
The "Crate of beer" drill is not only about looking towards this crate. You have an imaginary crate of beer in your hands. Then during transition you put the crate from one side to the other, always towards the centre of the turn.
So at the moment halfway through the backside turn you're carrying a heavy crate of beer on the inside. You'd never be able to open your hips and turn your upper body to the outside.

There's another guess I'd take: if your problem occurs mainly on steep icy slopes, it is something in your mind, a self-protecting move. There is a reason for that. Maybe it is because your mind knows that the turn will not work out. Maybe it is because you're getting too fast. I'd guess there is a problem earlier in the turn. Probably your line is not correct, and the board points already down the hill when you initiate the turn. Is it even possible that backside problems originate from frontside mistakes, such as not closing the frontside turn, getting too fast, and having too much pressure on the edge at the end of the backside turn.

[Hans]

Good one Fruno

[Lele]

In fact, troubles come in second part of the turn - but probably begin when board nose is facin' the slope . I realize that when I stretch the legs, and always, darin' to touch the snow, body weight shift on the back foot. I think - as Fruno wrote - that's a sort of unsecureness in backside itself. Sometimes seems to me that the board doesn't allow me to take my time to get down. Really, I realize my counterrotated position and what I'm doing, only when the board is perpendicular to the slope, and I'm strugglin' (when I'm luckily rydin' on) with a skiddin' board. Turn dir me runs too fast.

[fivat]

@frunobulax
I'm glad you are explaining Swoard-EC technique. It's a pity that you never managed to join one of our meetings: 48 events in 15 years. Next week-end in Hintertux (Austria) could be a good opportunity, with many Germans. It would be nice to meet... and a tribute to Petr, Arnaud and ... We could also talk and demonstrate various technical things (subjects like "plates" for example). In addition there will be a surprise with new gear (which will be nice for racers too).

@Lele
With my students I try to not put too many things in their heads, otherwise they mix everything and it gets worse. Go step by step. Your original question was about backside turn. But actually it's difficult to not talk about frontside turn as everything is linked.
Along to our long experience in the team, with hundreds of students, and to our friends' experience at Funcarve, a problem in backside often comes from a mistake at the end of the preceding frontside turn. We touch here one of the main points about Swoard-EC technique, which is inspired from surfing. Look at the surfers in waves, and especially their toes turns: they can't cheat with bound feet and can't let their board turn automatically with the help of edge shape, by simply balancing the body. They really drive their board by rotation of hips and shoulders, what gives more power on toes sides and heels side. Rotation technique promoted by Swoard brings many advantages for extremecarving which you can feel when you learn/accept it, especially in all snow conditions. In addition to the "push-pull" technique (as named by Jacques Rilliet), which is the work made with the legs with specific timing, you get not only a technique for EC, but also for easy carving and even riding in deep snow with fluidity.

See the excellent text in the Almanach here (to which we contributed) and of course in the pages here.
But again, don't place too many things in your head.
The best would be to participate to one of our events of the Swoard Demo Tour, as we give tips and lessons on the snow.
Finally the board which you have under the feet has a big influence. Many many boards are not closing the turns (they make what we called "banana turns", quite open curves), and/or are locking in the turns. We have worked hard and are still working on making boards with highest performances for what we like and letting us being the pilot.

Here is an original animation made by Pierre Régnier who filmed me. Pierre has written a book about snowboarding and developed an App for smartphone: TheSnowCoach.



I hope this helps a bit. I'm not totally satisfied by this animation (I'm too perfectionist), but it's OK.

Along to what you write in you last post, I suspect that you are not closing enough your preceding (fronstide) turn. Going "uphill" is important. Both technique and proper board help.

Patrice Fivat

[Lele]

Thanks Patrice
In effect I noticed your position just a moment before gettin' in heel plus position. Seems like you're coiling entire body like a spring.
Could be helpful, to help rotating into the turn, fallin' with the body directly towards the slope, when the board is still perpendicolare to the slope? In this way, I think, one forced the body being the real fulcrum of the turn. Watch that.

[fivat]

Yes! In the steep we love this feeling of the body being below the board.
But we should not "fall". It's something dynamic. As I often say, the snow must come to you, and you should not go to the snow.

Elias shot this video precisely on the black slope which is reserved for us during the ExtremeCarving Session!

Patrice Fivat

[Lele]

Look at Elias leadin' knee as he reach the max heel hedge inclination. Is it correct so pointed out?
Sorry for my technical questions .
I'm also a tennis player and technique ha my worship - maybe to much

[frunobulax]

@patrice: you got pm.

@lele: I' quite surprised to watch what the front knee really does during backside turns, thank you for drawing the attention to it. Elias seems to slide over the slope with his knee, even though he's riding quite flat (but typical EC) angles. Very interesting.

You're right about the coil thing. I've always been thinking about a drill for backside EC turns, but haven't found the perfect analogy yet.
The beer crate drill is good for rotation, but has other downsides, esp. there's a tendency to draw weight distribution towards the front.
My best analogy so far is: Maybe you think of standing next to a swimming pool, with you head facing the other side (and your back facing the pool, just like John McEnroe servicing), both heels at the brink of the pool, knees bent 90 degrees. Then you twist your body and do a rather slow head plunge (face downwards) into the water, diving as flatly as possible. The moment you touch the water, the movement is frozen.