Which Dual, and other newbie questions...

[slayer]

Hi,
I am a newbie looking to get into EC carving, and I had a few questions. I am currently a soft-booter (although with very stuff Burton DriverX boots and Custom-X board) and carve moderately well (I don't like to slip-slide), but heel-side carves I find quite difficult as the board is quite narrow, and I tend to boot out, although it could also be my bad technique..

1) I did some searching on this site, and for my weight, currently 85kg, height of 1.77m and boot size of UK11/12, Mondo 29.5, I need the Dual 175 due to my foot size, to avoid overhang, is that correct?
2) Are there any places to rent or demo such a board in Switzerland for late 2014 (when the ski season opens)? I am based in the Zurich region, but without a car. I can realistically only do day trips due to family life now, Flumserberg, Davos, Engelberg, that sort of thing. More than 2-3 hours by train is not much fun!
3) If all goes according to plan, I should be in Whistler in January. Is there any Swoard presence in Whistler?
4) I chose the Dual above because I haven't yet got into hardboots. I haven't ruled out getting an Extremecarver, and they are easier to find second-hand, but where do Swiss people get their hardboots? Everyone I have stopped and asked has had their boots since the '80s it seems.
5) Anyone selling off their last-season Dual? It is so 'last year'..!

Ideally, I would like to try it out first before buying and before my 'big holiday'. One a side note, it would be really cool to meet up with Swoarders to learn more about it. In return, my hobby is doing chase-cam snowboard videos, so I am pretty sure I can return the favour... I am testing out a new gimbal this year...

cheers,
Slayer.

[fivat]

Hello and welcome!

1) Indeed you have big feet for your height. So the Dual 175 should be good, though you still could have some boot overhang in function of your bindings angles and the brand of your soft boots.

2) The only permanent Test Center in Switzerland is the one in Zinal (Valais). From Zurich, you can also consider Lenggries in Germany, what is not so far. But by train both resorts require too long trip for you. See more info here.

3) Swoard is not as big as Burton yet. There are some Swoard riders in Canada BC, but no shop sorry. By the way I have been in Whistler and I liked the place.

4) Some Swiss people go to France to the chain store "Au Vieux Campeur" where you can find alpine boots. Another option is to get your boots from www.blue-tomato.com for example. Important: you should modify the spring system to make your boots softer, as we do it since 2000 (what started a trend worldwide). You can contact Abrax or Arnaud who can help you about this.

5) Did you check the Classified here ?

If you can, try to join the Swoard Demo Tour 2015 in Hintertux or Zinal. Or, maybe, if a Swoarder from Flumserberg, Davos or Engelberg reads this message, he could contact you for meeting.

See you on white terrains! Cheers,

Patrice Fivat

[slayer]

Thanks Patrice, for the answers.

1) can I ask what the width is of the Dual 175 at the waist, so I can compare against my boot size? I have the Burton Driver X, which is the stiffest soft boot around, and do not have that much bulk. They are not as small as the Salomon F1's from some years back, but they are not huge. I always wonder at the lengths needed to make hard boots have more flex...just like soft boots - and whether someday softboots could be made of thin enough material to replace the need for hardboots completely? Or are there other factors? Does the spring system give a more precise flex pattern?

2) Test centre - I will try to get to the test centre in Zinal at some point. I see they open for weekend skiing this weekend (15.11) - does that mean it has snow already? Or is it a few runs with artificial snow and probably not good for EC yet ?

3) Whistler is amazing! and with nice wide pistes (like most of the American continent in general) which I suspect would be great for EC, and gets chopped up less quickly. I was in Lenzerheide renting a board Pureboarding Bastard from Primus Sport, but the pistes were quite narrow and chopped up the day I was there. Great folks at Primus Sport by the way - they let me try out a number of hardboots over the course of the day, as they didn't have my exact size -I ended up with Ski-boots in the end, which I found way too stiff. Didn't get anywhere near EC, but I got the feel for a properly locked in turn -felt good!

4) Thanks for the tip, although that too far away for me. I hope Swiss shops pick up alpine snowboard gear soon. There is a market for it - everyone I have met is in 20yr old boots.

Can I ask a question which may be controversial: Why don't I see video's of you two on duals? Actually I think I have seen only 2 or 3 videos on youtube of people ECíng on Duals. Is it therefore harder to EC on Dual? Not as much fun? I would be glad to hear of any Swoarders in the Zurich area, if only to see things up close. I am quite happy to film EC'ers as well - practice for my main event in Whistler! I checked the classifieds - not many Duals for sale yet.

cheers,
Slayer

[fivat]

Hello again,

1) Width of Dual 175 is 27,0 cm in the center. Measure your other boards for comparison, so you know where you go. Hard boots bring more dynamics than soft boots because the spring system and all plastic shell give energy back when you press them. There are no soft boots on skis... but only hard boots for stronger forces and precision. I love soft boots for the cooler style and the freedom they give, especially off piste, but for pushing the limits the hard boots make all this easier, more powerful and precise. Actually I don't like comparisons: both gears have advantages and disadvantages. So I use both.

2) Snow conditions (well, stone conditions!) are very bad for now here. Even where it has snowed more (in Italy for example), temperatures are high. Let's stay patient.

3) Yes! I have got "hero snow" in BC and Colorado every time I have been there. Nice places for riding and progressing on wide slopes. In Switzerland there are many narrow slopes, but one can find some great resorts.
Ski boots are too stiff. The mountaineering boots are better, but you still have overhang. You really should go for snowboard hard boots (at good price on e-bay or in the Classified for example).

4) Unfortunately most shops prefer to sell soft boots for the mass. Only good shops like the one you mention ("Primus Sport"), "Au Vieux Campeur" and the ones in this French thread understand that many people still love alpine snowboarding.

Finally, there is a misunderstanding about the program of the Dual. We write clearly it is made first for freeriding and freecarving, especially if you use it with soft boots. Of course you can use it for extremecarving (EC), but for easiest EC we recommend rather the Extremecarver (Gen4 or Pro). Personally I get more fun all day long on the Extremecarver than on Dual if the goal is EC. Alpine gear is also more efficient on the backside and less tiring. When there is powder or freshly groomed snow, no hesitation for the Dual.
You probably have seen this video showing Petr making EC with soft boots, or this picture where I test hard boots on Dual...
Have you see our friends from Funcarve.com using soft boots and our EC technique? There are many students who want to learn carving with soft boots, what is super cool.

Keep us informed about your experience later in the season. This can be very helpful for other riders in same situation as you.
Cheers,

Patrice Fivat

[slayer]

Thanks Patrice,
This is all very good info. I will check my boots physical size to see if it compatible. I would love to get the hardboot setup along with my standard soft, but when travelling abroad by air for snowsports, one must look at the weight restrictions, especially for 'package holidays' - and I can't imagine going to Whistler with only hard boot equipment . Not just yet!

cheers,
Slayer

[slayer]

I measured my softboots length, and its 32 cms. My old maths classes come in useful here, I estimate a 32 degrees angle is needed not to have overhang, with some margin of error either way.. Is this to high an angle?

[fivat]

On front foot, this is not too much for freeriding and freecarving. But this is too much on the rear foot in my opinion.
Well, in function of the exact boot shape (the outline), the rear foot may not be a problem despite a lower angle, because the boot length is bigger on big toe than on small toes... Indeed, if you have positive angle, the big toe is more oriented inside the board (not too close to the edge).
I hope my explanation is clear enough.
You should check your Burton board and measure the with of that board.

Patrice Fivat

[slayer]

I measured my Burton board - it was slight less than 27cm at the waist, but 27 where the boots are mounted - and I definitely boot-out in that when carving, especially heel-side (which could be my weakness).

I traced my boot on a piece of A4 paper, which is 29.7cm and I could not get an angle less that about 56 degrees while keeping the boot within the top and bottom edge of the paper. Unfortunately my boots don't emphasise boot length on the big toe rather than the little ones so no gain there.

I re-measured my feet and they are actually 29 mondo! Are there any extreme carvers out there with this foot size who have worked this out on this board? Is hard boots my only realistic option? Do you make a 'wide' board? I will happily be a test subject if you need one, LOL. Or am I worrying too much and it is actually OK?

cheers,
Slayer.

[slayer]

I realised I hadn't 'closed off' this thread. I ended up buying a Dual 175 in the end. My boot issues are not as bad as I had feared, although the angles are in the 40+ degree mark, which is a bit of a challenge on less than perfect pistes (knee pain in rear foot).

I haven't got laid down turns yet, but my general carving has improved quite a bit I would say. I haven't got to the falling down bit and 'trusting the board'. I may have some technical questions, but I better start a new thread for those.

cheers,
Slay