EC and Skiing

[MarkN]

Raising a most dangerous and potentially contentious topic, but really curious to see what people think. The issue is whether there is any relationship between skiing and EC. I noticed that Nils, Patrice, and Jacques are skiers as well as snowboarders. In studying different carving styles, the EC technique seems to have more similarities to GS ski technique than some of the other, more compact, snowboard carving styles. High speed GS turns on skis involve very early transition to the downhill edge, extended legs through the turn's apex, and pretty extreme body inclination.

While I would not suggest that ski experience is necessary or even beneficial to any snowboarding, I can't help but notice some of the similarity and, at least in my case, familiarity between GS skiing and EC. Anyone else thought of this or is it clear that I have too much time on my hands thinking about EC.

Please don't pelt me too much with flames for bringing skiing into the forum!!!

[rilliet]

I noticed the same as you Markn. Today WorlCup skiing technique looks like push-pull technique in GS but in SL too.
IMHO this shows that today snowboarding race technique is perhaps not the most efficient...

Jacques

[harald]

Hi,
I do both, skiing (SL and GS in the evening when the conditions are less than perfect) and EC (snowboard) (at least attempts to do so). You do not have to do the both in order to learn proper techniques, but I think I benefit from doing both. There are the same laws of physics influencing both. You have to go forward and put pressure on the tips to initiate the turn, stretch during the turn to keep contact with the snow and retract at the end of the turn to absorb the pressure. Especially on flatter part of a ski course you a can see that skiers, both in GS and slalom stretch the legs around the gates while the upper body follows a more straight line. However, due to various conditions you will also notice that the turns are performed in the more bomberlike style if its necessary to put heavy pressure on the edges. But basically I think you are right, there are a lot of similarities between the two carving disciplines.

[Felix]

I bet you can put any really good raceboarder on slalom race skis, and he will outperform 95% of the skiing folks. Seems to work the other way round as well.

I know there is a Worldcup Snowboarder who just started snowboarding 2 years ago, before he had been skiing in the Europa Cup.

I started skiing too this year. Have been absent for 12 years. But I am better than ever before. Only difference I do is not to rotate at all on skis. Skiing is more fun on full slopes. Racing on empty slopes. Freeriding was madness this year. I had about 7 days waisthigh powder !!!!!
And about 15 of the normal 50-80 cm freshie days.

[nils]

I'm back slowly on skiies since last year, after a 20 year break, and I have to say i did not yet recover my confidence at having both feet separated...I have noticed however that my ability to carve a turn, guide the edge using the rotation technique has improved my skiing efficiency a lot ( i still lack the forward/backward balance on the edge length..
Doing push-pull makes turning modern skis almost easy! Ski is fun

N.

[raphael]

Hi,

What you all say is interesting. I haven't been on two boards for 10 years, but the more i understand snowboarding the more i think it's just like skiing. I should try the carving skis one day. But i'm afraid i can't avoid crossing the boards any more

[Felix]

@ raphael. Try some slalom race skis. They will force you to ride with wide stance inbetween the legs. like 165cm or shorter. Do it on an icy day. No crossing over will happen

[Jakob]

It is interesting, very interesting actually.

I had been skiing before I started snowboarding and was quite good at it and I usually ride one day in the season on skis, for the last few years carving skis and I quite like it and although I can ski pretty good with carving skis I always regret taking skis instead of the snowboard. But I force myself to ski, because I enjoy it in a way and I think it would have been a pity to forget how to ski.

People, who never stood on the snowboard always go on about how carving skis are great, how they glide and that exhilarating feeling of the carved turn...

However, as they don't know the feeling of a turn, carved on the snowboard, or even less the extremecarved turn , I like to say to them that I experienced that feeling years before carving skis were invented and that the feeling they are describing is a couple of times more intense on the snowboard

And that's really it - I like skiing and I ski occasionally and when it's crowded skiing is probably indeed an alternative to be thought over, but I would never replace skis with snowboard, it's simply so much more fun.

Oh, and I would almost forget about my opinion about relationship between skiing and snowboarding. Yes, I also think riding an alpine snowboard can help you a lot by skiing (carving ski), especially the movement, feeling for the carve... I guess it works the other way around too, my friend could ride a board in seconds and he is a very good skier. Or he's just talented...

Bye,

Jakob

[roger]

A few years back me and a friend rented carving skis. Atomic Beta Carve, something, and went skiing without poles. After the third run I waited down the slope. And as he didn't show up I walked slowly uphill and found him.. With a blue eye and some pains in the knee. It turns out that the right ski had taken off to the right, but his momentum kept going downhill, so he fell on his face and twisted the leg so that some ligament in the knee was torn.

After that I decided that carving skis are:

#1 Dangerous for the knees
#2 Less dynamic than a carving snowboard
#3 Good when the conditions are poor, due to the flexibility of skis
#4 Fun
#5 Bad for EC
#6 Bad when you fall. Having to fetch gear all over the hill

[István]

Some addition to the topic:

I have 2 EC Skier friends (used to be racers, instructors) who are really experts in this sport. They do linked, laid turns, both sides, both hands on the snow, also ther hip touchnig the snow.

They do it on 152-156cm skis, 8.5-9 m radius and huge (15cm) plates to avoid boot overhang on the sides.

What they do is completely different to what 99,99% of the skiers think about carving ski. I would say that they are as good in this sport as J&P in EC snowboarding.

After this long apetiser, I have 3 statements:

- Real EC existis also outside the snowboarding world. Ski EC seems to be easier for me (although I cannot ski) on not perfect surfaces than EC snowboarding due to the two independent legs and edges -> better and more stable grip.

- I have learnt many things about carving from them, although they cannot even do snowboarding! So these 2 sports are really close to each other from a technique perspective.

- I have never seen ski EC-ers like them on the slopes, not even Austrian ski instructors teaching carving ski. All the skiers that think that they are carvers (with some shitty 18m radius allround carve sticks) are fooled by ski marketing. They are not even close to carving.


Cheers,

István

[Felix]

Shit 15cm high plates? Are you sure, that's mad!

Could you please post a link to some pics. I want to see that. I have never seen carvers standing higher than 9cm (55mm is now FIS legal limit).

[István]

Unfortunately I do not have pics on them, and you are also correct on the usual plate heights. The extra thing here is that they use a special carving boot by Dalbello (I do not know if there are any other boots like that as I do not know the skiing industry) that has additional plates of appr 5 cm. It also has canting option.

Unfortunately I could not find this boot on the dalbello website, maybe they don't have it anymore....

I'll try to get some pics from them on their equipment and style.



Cheers,

Istvan

[roger]

István,

What they do is completely different to what 99,99% of the skiers think about carving ski.

I completley agree, carving low with proper carve skis, without poles, really looks something like EC! To raise another topic, how silly doesn't it look when a skier tries to go with the 80's and 90's teachniquie using poles and skis tightly together sliding and "jabbing" between turns ON CARVING SKIS!!! Wake up and smell the coffee!!

- Real EC existis also outside the snowboarding world. Ski EC seems to be easier for me (although I cannot ski) on not perfect surfaces than EC snowboarding due to the two independent legs and edges -> better and more stable grip.

Forget "Real EC" on skis. You cannot be totally laid out with the body and still maintain grip on skis no matter how high the plates are, and technique is good. Either there will be a boot-out or the outer ski will find a place in the air as the knee can not bend any further to compensate for the angle of body.

[István]

I've asked my fellow ski EC-ers to send over some pics. As they told me they made some video this season, they will try to capture some pics out of that and send it to me.

All I'm stating is that they are able to do linked, laid turns, with both hands down and the body very close to the snow. Obviously their body position is not extended - how could it be with 2 skies on....

Cheers,

Istvan

[roger]

István

All I'm stating is that they are able to do linked, laid turns, with both hands down and the body very close to the snow. Obviously their body position is not extended - how could it be with 2 skies on....

I'm sure they can achieve very low carving with their skis

Not to be mistaken as a "besserwisser", I reacall that ExtremeCarving is something defined as a rider on a snowboard doing a fully laid out carving turn with most of the body touching the snow. If I'm mistaken, correct me! J&P?

Regards

Roger