Rotation

[Mike_Slopecarver]

Hi!

For proper EC, Jacques and Patrice say that it's necessary to apply (together with push/pull) a proper rotation-technique. Obviously this is necessary for a proper EC but why? I understand that you have to apply rotation when you do a curve where you (your board) slide, but why with EC? On EC the edge doesn't slide, the (carved) curve results from the angle between the board and the slope and from the shape of the board! So why do we have to apply rotation on EC? What does it do exactly?

Thanks to any explanation from the masters!

Michael

[fivat]

The rotation technique comes from skateboarding and surfing techniques: in those sports feet are not bound to the board, so one can't cheat If you don't use the proper technique, you fall. It gives stability and better control (plus a good style). It's why it was applied to snowboarding.

In EC I noticed that 3 things add pressure on the edge: 1) push-pull technique 2) basculating the weight 3) rotation technique. To get maximum inclination and to lay down the turns fully, those 3 factors should be used. Rotation technique gives better control... You really drive your board. If you only basculate and let the board turn by itself (thanks to the shape), you are more vulnerable. And it prevents your progression on difficult slopes / on any snow conditions / with poor visibility conditions.

It's not theoretical, it's empirical

Patrice Fivat

[skywalker]

Hi,

Based on the empirical explanation given on https://www.extremecarving.com and my own experience, I will try to find a theoretican explanation, too.

Starting a rotation is always combined with a momentum. So if you want to "close" your turns, you have to rotate your entire body and therefore need a momentum. If you keep your turns open, performing Banana-Turns, it's no problem to keep your body facing downhill all the time, as you can do so from the beginning to the end of the turn. But if you want to do closed turns facing downhill, your board will turn under your feet, while your body is facing downhill all the time. When the turning of the board goes on, there will be a certain moment, when you upper body has to follow, as you are totally twisted. In this moment, there will be a sudden peak in the forces, your board has to afford. This comes from your up to this moment stationary body. To make your body start rotating, there is a momentum needed, which has to be given by your board... and may lead to loss of edge hold.

To keep your edge free from this force/momentung, you have to start the rotation before you change edges. This is, why (pre -)rotational technique reduces the needeed forces from your board's edge in "closed" turns.

Not so much a secret, but even in theory it sounds quite logical for me

Hope this helps

Sorry, it's hard to explain pure technical issues in English as a non-native speaker

Tom

[vkrouverk]

Non-rotation does not necessarily mean, that your upper body is always faced downhill: I believe that in swiss "parlance" (pre-) rotation is meant with respect to board : if you face always nose or bindings, then you are not rotating, but if your upper body turns with respect to board, then you are rotating. Of course one can rotate in same direction as board will ("proper" rotation), or in opposite direction (counter rotation, which you don't really want to do, perhaps only in emergency cases).
If you face always downhill, then you use so-called "french" or cross-under technique.
I believe, that it would be possible to execute EC (or more correctly totally laid down turns, as EC as manifested means rotated turns) without rotation: one has to face board nose for this all the time (I don't think that anyone would be able to pull out heelside EC turn while upper body is turned in direction of bindings or toe-side edge, this would mean sliding on butt and back, has anyone succeeded on this???). IIRC in last year's ECS video some people didn't use rotation very much and were able to link laid down turns. However, their riding style seemed to be more static than riding with proper rotation technique, which seems more fluid and dynamic.
And one has to remember, that most important aspect of carving is how it looks to others: fun from carving experiences rider only, but visually appealing carving can be enjoyed by everyone in slopes (and if someone tapes such riding and posts video in Internet, then it could be enjoyed by everyone having access to Internet)

[Mike_Slopecarver]

Thanks for your replies!

I think that it's very important not only to know that you have to apply certain techniques for EC but also why!

Michael

[MarkN]

Speaking of rotation, I am looking for advice on heelside turns. Specifically, the amount of rotation required and the timing of that rotation. When I watch the EC videos I notice, especially with Patrice, that the upper body quite quickly rotates towards the front of the board so that by the time the board is pointed down the fall-line the upper body is already facing or even ahead (in terms at least of rotation) of the front of the board. The rotation seems to continue throughout the last part of the turn, until being "unwound" for the next (toe-side) turn.

For EC, should the upper body be fully rotated (in maximum rotated position) before the board enters the fall-line or progress to that point as the turn progresses?

Should the rotation go beyond facing the front of the board or is facing the front of the board the maximum rotation required for full EC?

Does the rotation progress at an even rate as the turn progresses or is there an initial strong rotational movement to start the turn and then a slower, more progressive rotation for the remainder of the turn?

Also, it seems that a lot of flexibility in the body would help in making the movement on heelside much smoother. I have added torso stretching to my exercise regime specifically for this.

Any help greatly appreciated!

[yomama]

Mark,
I am learning how to EC so take what I say with a grain a salt but here is my take. The rotation is progressive with respect to the steepness of the slope. On steep slopes, the rotation is faster. On the green slopes, the rotation is very progressive (sthg I am still working on).

You can rotate pass the nose but that will be overotation which is good when learning to rotate (by forcing it) and for taking still pictures.

As P&J put it, a bad heelside is a result of a poor toeside. Sthg to meditate about.

My 2 cetns.

Oh , BTW, where do carve? Toronto?

Peter

[MarkN]

yomama,

Thanks for your thoughts on rotation. I carve at a place 1 hour north of Toronto called Mount St. Loius-Moonstone. It's the carvers' place in Ontario. Pretty well any day you go there will be other carvers. There is one run that is very wide, has nice pitch, and is very well groomed. We only have hills here, no mountains, so we have to take what we can get. If you are ever near Toronto, drop me a line.

Mark

[rilliet]

Excellent explanation Skywalker. I totally agree with you.

Jacques

[RicHard]

My two cents opinion...
Rotation has different effects relating to other movements you can do on your board.
Simplifying at the most, if your board is put just a little bit on the edge, the rotation makes your board rotate and make a beautiful slided turn.
At the beginning, the slided turn are teached with the support of the rotation.
But... what happen when you exhagerate with the rotation on a board that is put a lot on the edge and you are leaning into the turn? The tip dig a lot, not sliding anymore.
That's the difference: when the board angle (with the snow) is high, the more you rotate, the more it bites the snow with other collateral effects (grip, turn radius, etc...).
When the board angle is low, the more you rotate, the more you slide.
That's all.

[Pogokoenig]

Now my two cents opinion.

Rotation has several meanings. Most of them are alraedy discussed here.
There is one more meaning which i try do describe:
Rotation helps you to keep your body upright and your weight centered over the board. It's almost impossible to bend your hips or sit on the toilet (Kackstuhl) when you do a correct rotation. You would have to describe a huge circle with your upper body while rotating.

Teaching so a proper rotation will always tune his style into a more smooth and elegant direction.

In former times I rode with a very small rotation according to an older instructors book of DSV. This worked too but had bad effects on style and versatility of my riding. Using strong Rotation improved my style a lot and even is the most important tool to ride on challenging slopes and grounds.