Different Styles

Various topics, technical questions, announcements, events, resorts, ...

Moderators: fivat, rilliet, Arnaud, nils

User avatar
WinterGold
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 249
Joined: Tuesday 10 November 2009, 17:55
Location: Austria

Different Styles

Post by WinterGold » Friday 4 November 2011, 19:43

After reading some interesting ideas in the "ON EDGE tv" thread, I thought this would deserve an own thread.

This has been discussed numerous times, but somehow it isn´t really satisfying for me. A lot of people seem to defend their own technique by looking down on the technique of others. The "limited" possibilities of the "other" riding techniques are pointed out very often. But why? Is it just because people don´t know enough about the other disciplines of "our" sport? For me it is obvious that the different styles have different advantages and disadvantages, but neither is superior.

People who are talking down the "race technique" - How much do they know about it? And also the other way around! How many "racers" know what is going on here?

It is only natural that people like different styles. This makes the world colorful! Everybody doing the same thing would be really boring ...

I don´t have to point out in this forum how great the riding of Jaques and Patrice and several other extreme carving people is. The videos are among my favorite carving videos and I have watched them countless times.

But looking into the "race world" - have you ever seen for example Sigi Grabner free carving? I recommend you have a look at his part in the Japanese video series Installer - e.g. Installer 101 (starting at 30:30). I am including a screenshot here, if you have no access to the video. This is such a fluid and nice style. And despite the different upper body position (especially on the backside), there are a lot of similarities in the way the turns are fluently linked together and the way the board carves down the mountain (fully carved turns).

It would be nice, if some old prejudices would fall, especially if they are not true ... I personally am happy about every alpine snowboarder I still see on the slopes - no matter where they put their hands or which angle their upper body has ... :D
Attachments
SigiFront.png
SigiFront.png (183.15 KiB) Viewed 9463 times
Frontside.png
Frontside.png (188.25 KiB) Viewed 9463 times

User avatar
mirekd
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 142
Joined: Tuesday 8 March 2011, 13:50
Location: Boston, UK

Re: Different Styles

Post by mirekd » Friday 11 November 2011, 14:32

Hello !
I encourage you to discussion on this topic but.. I think that on this page will be difficult.

You just page "Extremecarving.com" was created by the people and for people who wanted to ride "from armpit to armpit."
All these people, sooner - often for many years - they ridden different boards and different styles of driving experience.
When Jacques Rillet and Patrice Fivat, referring to "Vitelli Turn", showed that this can be done on the two sides, it all snowborder riders is gone crazy (i, too, but only since March 2010). :evil2:

All Discussions - exchange ideas, share experiences of hardware and driving technique - they relate primarily to Extremecarving style.
I understand it ... and I hope that you, too... :wink:

If I am wrong - very please correct me...

Heated discussion about the different styles of riding snowboard (freeride, freestyle, Bomber, Pamp), evolved over at the Russian side, "Velvet.pro/Forum".
Velvet.pro_1.jpg
It may be of interest to you. :)

mirek
Like "joemzl" and others - extreme dreamer every day...

User avatar
Arnaud
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 3212
Joined: Friday 24 January 2003, 9:00
Location: Paris - IdF 95

Re: Different Styles

Post by Arnaud » Friday 11 November 2011, 14:47

mirekd wrote:If I am wrong - very please correct me...
Yes, you are wrong. It could be discussed here !
Extremecarving is not only laying down turns. It's also a riding philosophy based on the quest of gesture purity and esthetical, effortless riding.
Swoard EC Pro2 168H - Swoard EC12 Boots - Gen5 168H - Dual2 168

User avatar
tali
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 648
Joined: Sunday 4 January 2009, 1:41
Location: Mount St. Louis Moonstone, Ontario

Re: Different Styles

Post by tali » Friday 11 November 2011, 16:03

Exactly - I've shared my ideas about the extremecarving style earlier in this Forum - that doing a chain of fully laid turns is only (ONLY :silly:) the effect a rider is able to achieve, surfing in the extremecarving style. That rotation turns, push-pull turn etc. are not preparatory exercises for the laid turns, but equal elements of the extremecarving style program and philosophy.
tali wrote:Well, one more month to go here to get to the snow. :wall: In the meantime I've been watching these videos
tali wrote:
fivat wrote:For the people who didn't know those two videos which gather many different sequences in a progressive way:

:arrow:
:arrow: (in slower motion)

Patrice Fivat
and got some ideas. :D
I have to admit that, of course, from the very beginning I was thinking about extremecarving as laid turns, i.e. when you do linked laid turns, you extremecarve. On connecting slopes... you ride somehow, trying to carve or practise push-pull, or not to hit the mountain wall on one side and the cliff on the other of narrow runs from Durand in Zinal. :silly:

But looking at these videos this year, with a broader mind, I understood them not as a sequence of "how-tos" for laid turns, but as an essential program of the style. I mean, if one has a narrow and not steep slope, one should select "a quick push-pull" for better control of the board. On wider slopes, you can do "deeper push-pull"... There are slopes where you can select whether to lay turns or not... If you lack speed, gain it by going down... Never be too shy to jump... And - enjoy your laid turns :)

So, what would you think? :roll:

User avatar
frunobulax
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 813
Joined: Wednesday 8 September 2004, 12:50
Location: Gmunden, Upper Austria

Re: Different Styles

Post by frunobulax » Saturday 12 November 2011, 12:23

If everyone would see it the way you do, there wouldn't be any problem nor any discussions.
I do think that there is a development over the last few years that the different parties accept each other. But if you look into the history of especially EC, you have to admit that there was a strong effort necessary for the "EC party" to emancipate itself from the racer-dominated alpine world. So it is understandable that at that time people like J&P used strong words and strong statements.

But I have to add something personal:
I have made the experience that for a long time everything that came from the racer world had to be the truth and must not be doubted. That cost me many years and hindered me from developing my style and riding abilities.
I had to buy this and that gear (e.g. rock hard boots), I had to rotate my upper body and my knees in one direction for the first half of the nineties and in the other direction for the secold half (exaggerated, you know what I mean), I had to "gain edge grip" by holding my upper body outwards and grab the outward edge, I had by any means to hold my hands out of the snow and so on.
All theses things must not be doubted, even if they contradicted each other, because that was "the way races are won". Everyone who called himself an instructor and was into alpine was teaching these things.
As the result I was close to giving up snowboarding, especially after the emerging of the carving ski - because i didn't get better and thought this was already all that is possible for me on an alpine snowboard.

Things changed dramatically for me when I got in touch with the EC theory.
All those guys where teaching and practicing varying styles that had one thing in common - every instructor would laugh at them (mind, I'm talking about 2003).
And by copying those styles I learned more in two years than by listening to the racing-influenced instructors for the previous, say, ten years. I was doubtful at the beginning, since I believed all those things that had been planted in my brain for the previous years. I believed that EC technique clearly had to result in losing edge grip, for example.
It took me a long time to lose my prejudices. But success spoke for itself.

I believe that the "new" styles are now established and have enough self esteem to be more tolerant against the "old" styles (please don't get me wrong, I'm using the words "old" and "new" only for simplification), as well as the "old" world has to admit that the "new" styles are working when there are no gates in the way. So I hope things will become easier in the near future.

User avatar
Transistor Rhythm
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 302
Joined: Monday 10 March 2008, 9:46
Location: Eindhoven, The Netherlands

Re: Different Styles

Post by Transistor Rhythm » Saturday 12 November 2011, 17:41

There is no right or wrong in this case, you have people that need to get as fast as possible around a slalom and there's people that want to take carving to the extreme. Two different goals, and as a result two different styles. There is no old or new, rotation is really old as well. The reason I'm here is because I want to carve, and I'm not so much interested in racing myself. But I still like to see a good racer snowboarding as well.
Fridgecarver

User avatar
starikashka
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 963
Joined: Friday 29 February 2008, 20:07
Location: Russia
Contact:

Re: Different Styles

Post by starikashka » Saturday 12 November 2011, 21:04

I try to explain why some people look "down" for racing technique. There is reason behind that. Not a single, but fair in some cases.

Some time before the only way to master carving was to get a trainig from slalom coach. People just not get quick results and easy carving. Until someone had show them rotation technique and their world has changed. They got easy and efficient way to carve.

This make them think that racing style is wrong because it not meet their expectations and they have bad feeling about lost time. Some of them got a serious problems with knees etc. So there is a clear reason for them to talk about racing trainings in negative manner. I know people who start hardbooting from slalom trainings and then come to extremecarving.

In other hand people can see racers in "free" environment where is no gates. Those guys can go very fast and easy, even if there is inconvenient surface. This make other people think that racing technique is "perfect" and other technique such as extremecarving or CMC-style is artificial and so called "decorative".

So we got a reason for multiple year-by-year forum holy wars.
i`m learning

User avatar
licarver
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 136
Joined: Monday 6 December 2010, 23:31
Location: Reggio Calabria-ITALY

Re: Different Styles

Post by licarver » Saturday 12 November 2011, 23:14

SWOARD PRO2 161M 2154 - 3G 161M 391- DUAL 91- Northwave Old Yellow Boots-F2RT-RC10 Ibrid Tech DGss

User avatar
frunobulax
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 813
Joined: Wednesday 8 September 2004, 12:50
Location: Gmunden, Upper Austria

Re: Different Styles

Post by frunobulax » Sunday 13 November 2011, 10:17

Very interesting link, thx licarver.

Please read Scott Firestone's http://www.alpinecarving.com/technique.html which may be a bit outdated but describes very accurately the problems the interested carver had to face when looking for good instruction. Problems which resulted at least partly from the misunderstandings between the racing and the freecarving world.

User avatar
leeho730
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 88
Joined: Thursday 26 July 2007, 2:39
Location: Freaking Australia, in the middle of desert

Re: Different Styles

Post by leeho730 » Sunday 13 November 2011, 13:34

T'is a good article... Obviously written by a quite experienced carver... :)
Swoard 168M&S / Dual 158
TD3SW / Ibex
Stratos / R123

User avatar
NTwoO
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 45
Joined: Thursday 21 January 2010, 22:52
Location: Breukelen, Netherlands

Re: Different Styles

Post by NTwoO » Sunday 13 November 2011, 16:19

Interesting article.

Since September I'm training slalom riding and apart from that, received one 2 hour training at ECS2011 and a 2 hour training with an olympic slalom racer. The 2 trainings and the trainer giving our classes all advocate a similar style. Thus neutral position on the board. The Olympic rider said, "if you counter rotate or face the front of the board, then you are inherently out of balance and not capable of handling anything unexpected." It is thus interesting that so much difference is perceived where the riders actually share so much in their style...
It doesn't take a surgeon to tell that this is, way out of the box, you know out there kinda stuff

User avatar
mirekd
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 142
Joined: Tuesday 8 March 2011, 13:50
Location: Boston, UK

Re: Different Styles

Post by mirekd » Sunday 13 November 2011, 18:00

Hi !
NTwoO wrote:The Olympic rider said, "if you counter rotate or face the front of the board, then you are inherently out of balance and not capable of handling anything unexpected." It is thus interesting that so much difference is perceived where the riders actually share so much in their style...
Slalom driving technique and extremecarving technique these are two decidedly different driving techniques.
The first is aimed at overcoming the route as soon as possible (often very difficult slope) and 100% control on uneven slopes,
Slalom snowboard 1.jpg
Slalom snowboard 1.jpg (169.23 KiB) Viewed 9048 times
...while the latter is a beautiful art - the joy of contact with the ground :D
Arnaud_ECS2007_3d_VK_15.jpg
EC technique is "unique" - in order to properly perform a series of complete, almost horizontal, twisting, it is necessary (among others) exclude counter rotate - otherwise can not be!
Although I am a novice - well I mean. :wink:
Arnaud wrote:Yes, you are wrong. It could be discussed here !
Arnaud...
I did not say that the discussion on other styles of driving here is Impossible. :)
Only expressed the opinion that the discussion will be difficult, because the vast majority of people are only interested in "pure extremecarving" (school R & F). Is clearly this visible, observing the content of posts.
As you can see - the interest is high! :wink:

mirek
Like "joemzl" and others - extreme dreamer every day...

User avatar
NTwoO
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 45
Joined: Thursday 21 January 2010, 22:52
Location: Breukelen, Netherlands

Re: Different Styles

Post by NTwoO » Sunday 13 November 2011, 18:33

mirekd wrote:Hi !
NTwoO wrote:The Olympic rider said, "if you counter rotate or face the front of the board, then you are inherently out of balance and not capable of handling anything unexpected." It is thus interesting that so much difference is perceived where the riders actually share so much in their style...
Slalom driving technique and extremecarving technique these are two decidedly different driving techniques.
The first is aimed at overcoming the route as soon as possible (often very difficult slope) and 100% control on uneven slopes,
I was referring more to the counter rotation discussion. It was also what was referenced in my quote. Sure, EC has a number of aspects that differ from slalom racing. IMHO both are beautiful to watch.

Image

The bloke is slipping!
It doesn't take a surgeon to tell that this is, way out of the box, you know out there kinda stuff

User avatar
pokkis
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 1787
Joined: Monday 1 April 2002, 19:46
Location: Coilerlandia

Re: Different Styles

Post by pokkis » Sunday 13 November 2011, 18:46

That is not slalom or GS, that is BX, but old picture due that suit is not allowed anymore. Boots look to be F2 Hurricane, me love them :bravo:
But here one picture of racing
ImageImage
2020: XXXXXXMMMM MMMMMMMZZZ ZZZZZZZZzz zZZZZZzz zzZZSMMMMM uUUUUKKKK

hotfrontside
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 79
Joined: Wednesday 20 May 2009, 10:39

Re: Different Styles

Post by hotfrontside » Tuesday 15 November 2011, 12:49

i know 3 guys, close friends, very good riders. first rides completely crouched, knee before his chest ,hip always on the snow ,hand on snow, head up, like sitting on snow with legs sidewards,does counterrotation, good and successful racer .style does not work well in soft-wet snow cause board is too high on the edge...second goes extremely pull-push,definitely ec, though he does not rotate, hand and forearm on snow, prefers steep and medium steep slopes....third rides body completely straight .almost no moves on the board, begins turn leaning in and in mid and end of the turn leans also back, head down but hands off snow like flying his chest shoulders and head close over the snow. does rotation.looks somehow like slalom-waterskiing .likes rather flat and easy slopes...interesting is, that none of them could imitate the style of
other 2. i couldnt say which style was best-looking.....
so when i come to watch hardbooter all i want to see is wether he creates g-forces in his turns or maybe he is rather posing....

Locked