Hi everyone. At epicski.com there is a really interesting talk going on about the rights you have FIS RULES and how to cope with them. This has not been discussed here AFAIK so have a look over there. When slopes are crowded extremecarving just always gets so dangerous so what do you do? Stop it and do some skidded turns to take out speed?
http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.ph ... ge=1&pp=30
It gets really interesting from the middle of the first page.
Responsibilities and rights when carving
Moderators: fivat, rilliet, Arnaud, nils
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Freecarver
- Rank 5
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- Joined: Wednesday 29 December 2004, 10:42
- Location: Athens Greece
I was in Italy kronplatz last year when a skier crush in to me from behind.
The result was a broken boot shell and 2 destroyed bolt inserts of my board.
Instead of pay me the damage that he did to me and apologize he replyed to me that was my fault because I didn't go on a straight line
After all I had to rent suff for the rest of my holidays.
Felix,
I agree your post needs alot of discussion....!!!
I don't know who is dangerous and who is not,everybody put the blame to the other especially in my case.
I think common sence, priorities and alpine education sould be on the first line of all slope users to avoid insidents like mine, not became accidents.
Aris
The result was a broken boot shell and 2 destroyed bolt inserts of my board.
Instead of pay me the damage that he did to me and apologize he replyed to me that was my fault because I didn't go on a straight line
After all I had to rent suff for the rest of my holidays.
Felix,
I agree your post needs alot of discussion....!!!
I don't know who is dangerous and who is not,everybody put the blame to the other especially in my case.
I think common sence, priorities and alpine education sould be on the first line of all slope users to avoid insidents like mine, not became accidents.
Aris
Don't really understand
Hi,
the answer to the discussed questions should be clear and easy:
-The person, that comes from uphill, in the described cases always a skier, has to give the other one enough space for all his movements.
-Everyone on the slope has to be as careful as possible
So I think, if you listen to the letters, the answer can be given easily. Or is ther any other opinion here? If so, please let me know why!
This said, I think, everybody should be very careful, when he crosses the slope. I try to avoid crowded slopes, I rather stop at the side then risk a crash, I look uphill every time before I start and let skiers pass, if they are faster than me. Yes, I hate skiers and snowboarders, who don't give me enough space, especially backside and if there is enough room on the slope!
But again: There are rules for skiing and snowboarding. And when the question is about ones rights, the answer is easy IMHO.
Tom
the answer to the discussed questions should be clear and easy:
-The person, that comes from uphill, in the described cases always a skier, has to give the other one enough space for all his movements.
-Everyone on the slope has to be as careful as possible
So I think, if you listen to the letters, the answer can be given easily. Or is ther any other opinion here? If so, please let me know why!
This said, I think, everybody should be very careful, when he crosses the slope. I try to avoid crowded slopes, I rather stop at the side then risk a crash, I look uphill every time before I start and let skiers pass, if they are faster than me. Yes, I hate skiers and snowboarders, who don't give me enough space, especially backside and if there is enough room on the slope!
But again: There are rules for skiing and snowboarding. And when the question is about ones rights, the answer is easy IMHO.
Tom
free extreme carving
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Felix
- Rank 5
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- Location: Austria, but moedling near vienna, bloody 1 hour drive to semmering or rax
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If you are not the only one on the slope and you want to carve nice. While being on BS it is very hard to look uphill, so what to do?
Do you think it is enough to look up when exiting the FS and then decide if it is save to continue or not? Thats how I do it. While being on the BS there is quite a long time, may be 3-4seconds where I do not know what is going on above me.
Question: How load is the swoard when carving. I like to have a loud board so people notice me.
Do you think it is enough to look up when exiting the FS and then decide if it is save to continue or not? Thats how I do it. While being on the BS there is quite a long time, may be 3-4seconds where I do not know what is going on above me.
Question: How load is the swoard when carving. I like to have a loud board so people notice me.
Well, it has happened to me as well, actually it was worse, but not for me (at least not physically). And I've seen it happen to other carvers too.
I was carving and suddenly there came an elderly skier from above with considerable speed. Obviously he didn't expect me to make a turn (of which I am positive he should have anticipated my next move!
) an he crashed into me - hit the base of my board (I can still see the traces of his skis), fell over and broke his collar bone. I immediately stopped, went back to him and asked if everything was OK. And now the epilogue: there were no eye witnesses. Later some people came and helped, also a supervisor. I got a letter after a few months, in which he was threatening me with a court procedure, claiming he has witnesses, constant pain in his shoulder and more. And it most definitely was not even my foult! We settled the dispute, but ever since I'm more than careful.
I always wait, until the slope is clear uphill and downhill and even though it has happened to me a several times that a skier came out of nowhere speeding past me in a straight line. Very close occasionaly. I even got blamed for it, but then I usually freak out and really tell them what they need to hear. It has never happened that anyone would say anything back once they hear what I have to say, but it really pisses me off!
However, be careful, usually all you have to do is wait for 3-5 minutes and you have a free way and you don't need to burden yourself with those thoughts. And remember what you already know - people ski with carving skis much faster than with old sticks, but only few of them know how to handle their skis at the speed they ride them...
Good luck,
Jakob
I was carving and suddenly there came an elderly skier from above with considerable speed. Obviously he didn't expect me to make a turn (of which I am positive he should have anticipated my next move!
) an he crashed into me - hit the base of my board (I can still see the traces of his skis), fell over and broke his collar bone. I immediately stopped, went back to him and asked if everything was OK. And now the epilogue: there were no eye witnesses. Later some people came and helped, also a supervisor. I got a letter after a few months, in which he was threatening me with a court procedure, claiming he has witnesses, constant pain in his shoulder and more. And it most definitely was not even my foult! We settled the dispute, but ever since I'm more than careful. I always wait, until the slope is clear uphill and downhill and even though it has happened to me a several times that a skier came out of nowhere speeding past me in a straight line. Very close occasionaly. I even got blamed for it, but then I usually freak out and really tell them what they need to hear. It has never happened that anyone would say anything back once they hear what I have to say, but it really pisses me off!
However, be careful, usually all you have to do is wait for 3-5 minutes and you have a free way and you don't need to burden yourself with those thoughts. And remember what you already know - people ski with carving skis much faster than with old sticks, but only few of them know how to handle their skis at the speed they ride them...
Good luck,
Jakob
Element - water.
I wait too (safe and allows me to rest a littleJakob wrote:I always wait, until the slope is clear uphill and downhill and even though it has happened to me a several times that a skier came out of nowhere speeding past me in a straight line.
). Though, this year a skier did come from nowhere at high speed and, not being used to it, it's been quite a unpleasant surprise for me; IMHO it's very important that everybody thinks about all the new different ways others have to behave on the slope according to their sport (carving ski, freestyle, carving snowboard and so on); unfortunately, not everybody is thinking that way which leads to unsafe behaviors 
... maybe we should think about a 'riding licence' 
* * * "Carve diem, that's it " * * *
No licences please, we are already burdened with too many of those! Better be careful and wear A LOT of protections...(I always carry a backpack full of light clothes, and I wear knee pads + reinforced gloves after I had a front collision with a big skier in hunter mountain, NY -> the guy wanted to go to my track and viceversa but I was laying a carve and when I got up and saw him was too late -> destroyed my new santa cruz 157SL prototype with 3 days riding on it ) 
Francesco Swoard (1G175M 3G175M020 e 168H054),Wingergun205,Shaman193,TTubeS1/174GS,F2 (RS183'08 e'06/Lancelot/Slbpfl),Virus (Hurric./Dragon),Pogo (Hardc./Imp.),Burton (FP/Speed/PJ/CustomX),WildDuckFantasy, Duret168, OxygenProton168GS
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Felix
- Rank 5
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- Joined: Thursday 30 October 2003, 20:14
- Location: Austria, but moedling near vienna, bloody 1 hour drive to semmering or rax
- Contact:
@ silver
shitty yeah, happy never anything serious happened to me with someone else, I was always alone when crashing my knee.
But how the heck can you carve decently with a backpack???
I use a helmet, and occasionally a back-protector too.
I would not have thought that so many of you already experienced crashes while the other person broke the rules and then even accused you!!!!!!
shitty yeah, happy never anything serious happened to me with someone else, I was always alone when crashing my knee.
But how the heck can you carve decently with a backpack???
I use a helmet, and occasionally a back-protector too.
I would not have thought that so many of you already experienced crashes while the other person broke the rules and then even accused you!!!!!!
Crashing with a skier
Just to add my story: I have crashed many times with skiers (not due to my fault as in Zinal when I hit fellow EC-ers... 
).
In most of the cases they just wanted to follow me to see how this rare sport looks like. Or even wanted to come in my track. I think everyone can figure out what happened after....
Since they are coming from behind, they should be careful based on the rules. Unfortunately most of the skiers cannot do such turns, so when on a slope I reach a speed or a steep enough part that I can start laying it down, they crash into me with a surprised face. And then who is to blame? Of course the snowboarder.
My issue with this is that vast majority of the skiers have prejudice against boarders.... not to mention hardbooters on long sticks..... hence they even forget about the rule (the one behind should be careful) and start blaming me.
The worst case was when I hit a little girl. She just ran straight into me with high speed during a turn. The only thing I realised that I was sitting on a helmet..... poor she was crying with a bleeding nose. I felt very sorry for her, although she screwed up. People around wanted to kill me.....
So, even if you look around when you start, it can happen that a skier is faster than you and finally he/she ends in your butt. The problem: noone will believe in your innocence
Cheers,
István
).In most of the cases they just wanted to follow me to see how this rare sport looks like. Or even wanted to come in my track. I think everyone can figure out what happened after....
Since they are coming from behind, they should be careful based on the rules. Unfortunately most of the skiers cannot do such turns, so when on a slope I reach a speed or a steep enough part that I can start laying it down, they crash into me with a surprised face. And then who is to blame? Of course the snowboarder.
My issue with this is that vast majority of the skiers have prejudice against boarders.... not to mention hardbooters on long sticks..... hence they even forget about the rule (the one behind should be careful) and start blaming me.
The worst case was when I hit a little girl. She just ran straight into me with high speed during a turn. The only thing I realised that I was sitting on a helmet..... poor she was crying with a bleeding nose. I felt very sorry for her, although she screwed up. People around wanted to kill me.....
So, even if you look around when you start, it can happen that a skier is faster than you and finally he/she ends in your butt. The problem: noone will believe in your innocence
Cheers,
István
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Freecarver
- Rank 5
- Posts: 118
- Joined: Wednesday 29 December 2004, 10:42
- Location: Athens Greece
Ok guys,
I agrre to wait until the slope is clear and go and I'm sad hearing that alot of you had accidents like mine even worse.
As well I know that we are the black sheaps of the resorts,who do you think is responsible for this opinion that they have about as?
What about these people standing in the middle of the piste snowboarders or skiers chatting around without giving a damn if they are in the middle of the way?
Or first time weekenders on the slope that they just rent a stick or two for fun,without any lesson or lets say piste behaviour, thinking, that because the bought a lift ticket the resort belongs to them?
IMO needs more snow patrol from the resort stuff telling them to be more respectfull to the other piste users by sitting on the side or to have a lesson first before they hit the slopes. If this doesn't work they should take their lift ticket off them, maybe a little hard option but who knows make some people think and respect the others.
It's about safety after all.
Aris
I agrre to wait until the slope is clear and go and I'm sad hearing that alot of you had accidents like mine even worse.
As well I know that we are the black sheaps of the resorts,who do you think is responsible for this opinion that they have about as?
What about these people standing in the middle of the piste snowboarders or skiers chatting around without giving a damn if they are in the middle of the way?
Or first time weekenders on the slope that they just rent a stick or two for fun,without any lesson or lets say piste behaviour, thinking, that because the bought a lift ticket the resort belongs to them?
IMO needs more snow patrol from the resort stuff telling them to be more respectfull to the other piste users by sitting on the side or to have a lesson first before they hit the slopes. If this doesn't work they should take their lift ticket off them, maybe a little hard option but who knows make some people think and respect the others.
It's about safety after all.
Aris
I do not agree that we are the black sheeps, but it's true that people have prejudice about snowboarders. Most people notice and aknowledge the skill of the rider if one rides well, just as I notice a skier that has skill to ride hard and fast and has CONTROL over his skis. Of course, no matter how careful, bad luck never rests, so an accident can happen to even the moct cautious one. 
However, when I was taught how to ski, I was told that part of the skiing technique on the straight (not carving) skis was indicating the initiation of a turn by sticking a stick in the snow and it was considered a sign for someone to change direction. Snowboarders don't have such accessories and for someone not familiar with snowboarding technique is impossible to predict from eg. shoulder rotation an attempted turn. Furthermore, I reckon that snowboarders behaviour is less predictable than skiers. Although skiers too don't always make exactly the same turns over down the slope, snowboarders more often make differences in width of the carve (I often do, because when conditions on the slope are not the best, I try to carve where I estimate that I could make the best turn), sometimes we also carve uphill and this is difficult to predict as it is a decision made on the spot.
Neverheless, even so, person coming from uphill should take precaution when overtaking and that person should also bear in mind that if it he/she is not familiar with snowboarding technique and if he/she is not certain about snowboarders next move, they should not overtake!
But I think that the main reason for prejudice are people who learn how to ride and those (in my experience mostly freestylers) who stop wherever they feel like, most often in the middle of the slope or just after the spot, where the steepness changes (I don't know the word for that spot...
). Sliding on the board and falling many times over on the runs that are just too difficult for the riders skill is what often makes people less tolerant when it comes to snowboarders.
But I've often seen people positively surprised when they see someone riding with skill, they would like to try snowboarding, expirience the feeling of the carve and the also express their excitement about good riding. So I guess the prejudice yes, but on the spot many people change their mind or at least start making differences between riders. Most don't even know there are many styles of snowboarding.
So, I guess it's not as bad as it looks, however, there will always be people who won't like snowboarders and will wan't to ban them from the groomed pistes.
Bye,
Jakob
However, when I was taught how to ski, I was told that part of the skiing technique on the straight (not carving) skis was indicating the initiation of a turn by sticking a stick in the snow and it was considered a sign for someone to change direction. Snowboarders don't have such accessories and for someone not familiar with snowboarding technique is impossible to predict from eg. shoulder rotation an attempted turn. Furthermore, I reckon that snowboarders behaviour is less predictable than skiers. Although skiers too don't always make exactly the same turns over down the slope, snowboarders more often make differences in width of the carve (I often do, because when conditions on the slope are not the best, I try to carve where I estimate that I could make the best turn), sometimes we also carve uphill and this is difficult to predict as it is a decision made on the spot.
Neverheless, even so, person coming from uphill should take precaution when overtaking and that person should also bear in mind that if it he/she is not familiar with snowboarding technique and if he/she is not certain about snowboarders next move, they should not overtake!
But I think that the main reason for prejudice are people who learn how to ride and those (in my experience mostly freestylers) who stop wherever they feel like, most often in the middle of the slope or just after the spot, where the steepness changes (I don't know the word for that spot...
). Sliding on the board and falling many times over on the runs that are just too difficult for the riders skill is what often makes people less tolerant when it comes to snowboarders. But I've often seen people positively surprised when they see someone riding with skill, they would like to try snowboarding, expirience the feeling of the carve and the also express their excitement about good riding.
So I guess the prejudice yes, but on the spot many people change their mind or at least start making differences between riders. Most don't even know there are many styles of snowboarding. So, I guess it's not as bad as it looks, however, there will always be people who won't like snowboarders and will wan't to ban them from the groomed pistes.
Bye,
Jakob
Element - water.
Snowpatrols
There is a nice small family place in Austria, called Annenheim (Gerlitzen Alpe). I do not know the reason, but there are significantly more snowpatrols than at any other places I've been to. At least 3-4 is roaming around always in a relatively small place.
And you know what, I see the suspicion in ther eyes when they see me. They came after me many times, just checking if the 'snowboarder kills someone'. Never stopped me, but made some angry looks.
What is this if not prejudice??
Kindest,
István
And you know what, I see the suspicion in ther eyes when they see me. They came after me many times, just checking if the 'snowboarder kills someone'. Never stopped me, but made some angry looks.
What is this if not prejudice??
Kindest,
István
As I've said, there will always be people prejudiced, no matter what. I know some that especially don't like carvers. Actually they have a reason for hate. They broke their legs when their ski got caught in one of our deep, beautifuly and delicately cut trenches...
My experience is though that in general people quite enjoy riding with snowboarders who know how to ride.
Bye,
Jakob
My experience is though that in general people quite enjoy riding with snowboarders who know how to ride.
Bye,
Jakob
Element - water.
French ski resorts try to promote safe behaviour on the piste by an important communication campaign. The basic rules of safety are displayed on posters in many different places. It is a long way to improve things...A lot of people are injured and some are killed every year.
Most of the kids wear an helmet now. That's a good point.
The thing is that standard skiers or snowboarders are not used of your actvity and can't anticipate the "weird" trajectory.
I have noticed that in every resorts, early in the morning, most of people are gathered all at the same places, they often want to go at the highest point of the resort or on the most popular pistes that are not always the best. All the other pistes are for you alone!!!
Most of the kids wear an helmet now. That's a good point.
The thing is that standard skiers or snowboarders are not used of your actvity and can't anticipate the "weird" trajectory.
I have noticed that in every resorts, early in the morning, most of people are gathered all at the same places, they often want to go at the highest point of the resort or on the most popular pistes that are not always the best. All the other pistes are for you alone!!!