nose-diving

[frunobulax]

Hi to all, I'm a newbie here, but very amazed about this site, so please don't beat me up if I missed the correct thread for my question!

I've got some problems with nose-diving on soft slopes, especially on backside turns.
When I lay down into the backside turn and don't keep very much concentrated on leaning backwards (towards the rear end of the board), the nose will very often dig into the snow and skid away surprisingly.
First I thought it has something to do with cant/heel lift forcing me to put too much pressure on the front end of the board but then I saw my brother having the same problem without any heel lift.
Nose-diving won't occur on frontside turns and never on hard-packed terrain but is very much getting on my nerve on soft slopes, new snow etc.

Is there any possibility to avoid this or do I just have to wait one or two days after the new snow has fallen until the slope is hard-packed enough?

greetings and thx
fruno

[nils]

Welcome and thnx for the interest

Two questions first:
- What kind of board do you ride
- What flex does the board have? I assume the board is too soft maybe for this kind of snow...?

Tell us about your settings! Cant and lift might also play a role since you are not it seems riding on both your two legs with equally pressure during the turns; but more using a front leg / back leg technique. The Swoard board for example is very soft compare to race boards, but the two feet same pressure technique makes it almost impossible to dive over the nose... Never happened to me yet! Read the site and the forum for lots of info on that technique

Nils

[frunobulax]

Hi Nils, thx a lot for answering so quickly!

I ride a 172 Silberpfeil (rather stiff nose) and a 183 F2 RS (soft nose compared to the SP and to the factory prime I had before), Raichle AF 600, Burton Race Physics with rather much heel lift on the back foot, front foot flat. Angles 66/63, have tried lower angles but cannot go under 60 on the SP because of my shoe-size.
I know my settings are somewhat different from what you and the other EC guys recommend but I´m here to learn. I will surely try different settings during the upcoming season but I wan't to change them slowly since I still use some "Old School"-Techniques and have no problems doing some laid and linked turns now and I don't wan't to give it all up at once and start at the beginning... - booo-hooo (sniff)...

I'm puzzled about what you said about soft and hard flex because I thought I had more problems with nose-diving on the stiff Silberpfeil but maybe I'm all wrong (ok I won't start crying again).

So what is this "two feet same pressure" thing (I think that's exactly what it's all about since I have the feeling that I have too much pressure on the front leg, esp. at the beginning of the turn)? Ok I'll read the site and the forum and then come back

Have to admit I get jealous when I read you haven't had any problems with nose-diving yet...

[pokkis]

For me, if we are talking about nose diving,not that nose slips under pressure, is coming from that one has too much presure over nose related stiffness of board. With softer nose, nose will not dig in soft snow so easily, rather it will bend and try to dig out. With stiffer one ths one will hapen more easily, you can find here some comments about nose dives with Silbers.
Another point is also shape of board in nose section, more rounded shape is more forgiving. Rounded shape naturally means also shorter effective length so this is compromise when desiging board. Shape of Swoard is quite tight so it will be interesting to see how it goes in soft, i have not ridden that yet, but according feedback here, there should be no issue with Swoard

[vkrouverk]

From other post it could be seen, that he uses F2 RS and SP (Silberpfeil). Both boards are quite stiff and need agressive riding: when I rode my SP then it was quite mandatory to move weight forward in order to make it turn (I use Conshox, which makes it even stiffer). So no wonder, that such board tends to nose-dive in softer conditions. When I switched to Swoard, then I had initially same nose-diving problem in softer conditions, as I was used to move weight forward in order to initiate turn, but with Swoard this is not required in same extent as with stiffer boards.

Additionally what comes to SP, then quite many complain about nose-diving, so this seems to be board's problem due to it's nose shape and/or flex pattern.

One possibility is to move bindings backward couple of cm, this can avoid nose-diving (but then you need to move weight more forward on hard snow during turn initiation).
Other option is to change riding style during soft days and avoid agressive "racing" style.
And finally you can get other board, which does not have such problem

[nils]

yes i meant the board nose is too stiff not too soft
its true that a softer nose will tend to bend and go out of the snow, when a stiff nose will tend to dig straight!

N.

[harald]

Hi,
I can only agree with Pokkis, vkrouverk, and Nils. Before I bought a Swoard, I rode a F2 RS 173. This board was (and is) good on hard, even conditions. However, the nose digs in in softer conditions and on softer spots on the slope. I think it is caused by the narrowness and flexpattern, read stiffness, of this board. The problem almost disappeared with the Swoard. The Swoard is wider and has another flex pattern so the nose "floats" in soft conditions and also when hitting softer spots on the slope. To correct the problem, other than buying a Swoard, is to be very precise with the balance throughout the turn, with the weigth evenly distributed on the front and back foot. This requires a lot of training and feeling for the snow. As you say, hardpack and ice reduces the nosediving problem.

[frunobulax]

Hi,
thx to all of you, guess that's what happens when one buys a raceboard and wouldn't use it for racing. And for the Silberpfeil, that's what was my first impression of the board, that the F2 guys missed their aim and built a raceboard for the wrong purpose (maybe some SL/RS bastard) and just named it a freecarver.
Don't get me wrong, I believe the SP is a good board, it draws it's lines precisely and makes lots of fun on hardpack and ice, but it needs also precise technique and well trained legs (and I woulndn't say anything really bad about F2 since the factory is just a few km's from where I live and they at least do something for alpine; think of Burton and the others!).

So that's what I'm gonna do (since there seems to be no chance to get me a Swoard soon):
I'm gonna change my settings slowly and one change after the other to find out which will help and which does not. Heel lift, angles, shoes, etc.
I can't put my bindings back because they're already in the rearmost inserts. Maybe it has to be a compromise cause I've learned that everything that improves the backside may also affect the frontside and so on.
Then I do a lot of training.
Then I come back and start a new thread "How I got rid of nose-diving".

greets
fruno

[pokkis]

Quick comment, how big is your stance if you dont have any space to go backwards ? That sound that your stance position might be also too much back, which is quite common habit for people Normally that is no big deal when riding with long sticks, but it also requires partially unhealty position to get fully support of cant put it also helps partially to avoid nose dives. Unfortunately it also eats all reserve for those days when you really need that extra reserve
If i remember right on RS stance position should be set quite well according markings ie using same length settings for front and rear binding.

[frunobulax]

haven't measured it yet but stance could be well over 50 (height 192 cm), rear foot maximum backwards, front foot maybe 3-4 cm still left. I used the marks from my burton fp and transferred them to the F2, maybe stupid but it seemed strange to me to see so little snowboard in front of my feet when looking down...

[pokkis]

I'm 180 and my stance is 50 now i had more in some phase but now when riding on slightly harder surface have turned it slightly less. And i'm riding on flat setting, when adding lift under heel and toe i would add few cm to stance, but this would be case with long sticks like 200+
I would recommend setting it equally spread on normal surface.

[frunobulax]

correct me if I'm wrong:
bindings backwards -> more pressure on rear end of board, more stability, less tendency to nose-diving
bindings forward -> more pressure on front end of board, better manoeuvrability, also some tendency to "oversteer", more tendency to nose-diving

Did I get it right?

what is the effect of more or less stance?
I feel more comfy on bumpy terrain with more stance but is there any positive effect when reducing the stance?

[RicHard]

Hello, Just a brief reply to pokkis and the aim of F2 guys:
*I absolutely agree with you!*

Everybody is asking me (Silberpfeil 162-168): is this a race board?
"no, if you read the brochure! yes, if you see the features".
Freecarve board are usually softer, wider, roud tipped and haven't plain tail! So... what is still in the silberpfeil that usually you can find in a freecarve board?
I use it for racing in the slalom courses...
And I agree with you: he needs strong legs, presence, technique, etc...
Absolutely NO freecarving board.
He needs ice or hard-packed snow.

You are the first that put in words what I think from the first riding with my Silberpfeil (years ago).

_RicHard

[RicHard]

Sorry for mistake: my previous answer was to the Frunobulax' messagge.
_RicHard

[frunobulax]

thx for the flowers (dunno if this is used in english too), RicHard.
I was not sure if I'm right for nearly a full season and couldn't believe my own judgement but then some friend of mine told me he thought the same of the SP. No freecarver. Good racing stuff, but no freecarver.
The bad thing is that a big factory like F2 would have the power to make carving popular again by producing good easy-to-handle carving stuff but this can't be it.
But I think we're a bit off topic now.