http://www.hardbooter.com/articles.php?id=22
Sorta sounds like perhaps he was not in the right snow conditions? Any rebuttal?
Negative Swoard review (not by me!)
Moderators: fivat, rilliet, nils
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Jack Michaud
- Rank 3
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WokkingMax
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Negative report on Swoard
Well, there is one element I would like to draw your attention to, but before that, I'd like to put some disclaimers here:
- I do not have a Swoard, so I'm not the right person to defend it
- I was also riding narrower boards before and was pretty much satisfied with them. Until a certain level of laying down they do OK, above that level I had problems caused by width / angles / bootsize - as usual.
- I have not even tested my Virus (this weekend I will!!!) so I'll might also have some negative feelings about wider boards.
BUT:
This guy does perfectly laid turns under 15mph (under 24 km/h, lets assume 20 km/h) but has difficulties with the board between 25-30 mph (upper twenties, as he writes) that is 40-48 km/h.
Well, I do not know what the Swoard does between 40-48 km/h, but I am 100% sure that noone can do linked turns at 20 km/h. Maybe 1 laid turn and then some sitting in the snow....
Just to give a feeling about 20 km/h, that is your speed when you run a bit faster than jogging (but far not a speed of a sprinter, that is around 36 km/h!), e.g. Marathon runners do something like 20 km/h on average (bit more than 2 hours for mor than 40 km).
So, imagine yourself running, now take that speed and think about linked, laid turns. Impossible.
Thats all, cheers,
István
- I do not have a Swoard, so I'm not the right person to defend it
- I was also riding narrower boards before and was pretty much satisfied with them. Until a certain level of laying down they do OK, above that level I had problems caused by width / angles / bootsize - as usual.
- I have not even tested my Virus (this weekend I will!!!) so I'll might also have some negative feelings about wider boards.
BUT:
This guy does perfectly laid turns under 15mph (under 24 km/h, lets assume 20 km/h) but has difficulties with the board between 25-30 mph (upper twenties, as he writes) that is 40-48 km/h.
Well, I do not know what the Swoard does between 40-48 km/h, but I am 100% sure that noone can do linked turns at 20 km/h. Maybe 1 laid turn and then some sitting in the snow....
Just to give a feeling about 20 km/h, that is your speed when you run a bit faster than jogging (but far not a speed of a sprinter, that is around 36 km/h!), e.g. Marathon runners do something like 20 km/h on average (bit more than 2 hours for mor than 40 km).
So, imagine yourself running, now take that speed and think about linked, laid turns. Impossible.
Thats all, cheers,
István
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frunobulax
- Rank 5
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- Location: Gmunden, Upper Austria
Would be an interesting issue: how fast are we actually? I can not even estimate it. Would 30 mph=48 kph be fast? Or just normal speed? Could it be doing laid turns at 48 kph is something nobody does normally? I guess one tends to overestimate his own speed in terms of kph. Anyone got an idea?
f.e.: I remember watching skiing races on tv, there they say skiers reach on an average
60-70 kph at giant slaloms
30-50 kph at slaloms.
If you've ever been to such a race you will agree that these guys go horribly fast (surely faster than SB racers), they appear above you and are gone within just a few seconds.
f.e.: I remember watching skiing races on tv, there they say skiers reach on an average
60-70 kph at giant slaloms
30-50 kph at slaloms.
If you've ever been to such a race you will agree that these guys go horribly fast (surely faster than SB racers), they appear above you and are gone within just a few seconds.
No information about weight and height of the tester ...
The board is 175 but nothing about the flex.
Maybe this board is not the good one for the rider.
Arnaud
Edited :
I've had a look to the gallery : Billy don't appear a "strong giant"
The board is 175 but nothing about the flex.
Maybe this board is not the good one for the rider.
Arnaud
Edited :
I've had a look to the gallery : Billy don't appear a "strong giant"
Swoard EC Pro2 168H - Swoard EC12 Boots - Gen5 168H - Stoke 162 M
Rules:
O.k., it's quite easy:
One might think about the SWOARD whatever he wants. But before you think about this review, you should visit his gallery. An ugly-style carver thinking he was important on a F2 Speedster RS. Maybe he's not the sufficient reviewer for a SWOARD. Maybe it's rather a lack of riding-technique than of board-quality. And maybe it's not a good Idea to compare the SWOARD 175 to a board of a 190+ length.
One might think about the SWOARD whatever he wants. But before you think about this review, you should visit his gallery. An ugly-style carver thinking he was important on a F2 Speedster RS. Maybe he's not the sufficient reviewer for a SWOARD. Maybe it's rather a lack of riding-technique than of board-quality. And maybe it's not a good Idea to compare the SWOARD 175 to a board of a 190+ length.
Speed
Pokkis, this is what I'm saying, the guy is talking mph and I've translated it into km/h, so 20 is surely km/h. (the guy said less than 15 mph, 15mph is 24 km/h, this is why I came to 20 km/h)
Frunobulax, I think (someone correct me if I'm wrong) EC is done somewhere in the range of 30-35 km/h.
If you are brave enough, you can easily do 60-70 km/h on a steep well groomed slope.
Cheers,
István
ps.: To have a feeling about speed: top running speed of a normal sporty man is about 30 km/h (on a short distance, of course)
Frunobulax, I think (someone correct me if I'm wrong) EC is done somewhere in the range of 30-35 km/h.
If you are brave enough, you can easily do 60-70 km/h on a steep well groomed slope.
Cheers,
István
ps.: To have a feeling about speed: top running speed of a normal sporty man is about 30 km/h (on a short distance, of course)
Istvan, you are right, i mixed mph figures 
If i recall right Bordy is (former?) top racer so i believe he can ride for sure.
But yes, those speed figure given in report seems to be quite low. It would be good to know flex of tested board but i wonder if guy who gave board, specially if he is some kind represetative of Swoard, he should know meaning of flex ??
If i recall right Bordy is (former?) top racer so i believe he can ride for sure.
But yes, those speed figure given in report seems to be quite low. It would be good to know flex of tested board but i wonder if guy who gave board, specially if he is some kind represetative of Swoard, he should know meaning of flex ??
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nils
- Swoard founder
- Posts: 3043
- Joined: Friday 22 March 2002, 19:22
- Location: Lyon, France - Swoard team
- Contact:
few comments but not much
First of all: Jean -paul boards was a 175H ( he now rides a 168H for the 175H was too stiff for him...)
The 175H board is meant for riders in the 84 to 95 kilos range, and above 181cm. I am currently 190cm and 80 kilos and I find the H flex way too stiff for me and have difficulties turn the board.. This is why first of all i'd like to know the tester size/height. IF he happens to be out of the size/weight range, then its like running a marathon with shoes 3 sizes bigger or smaller....Not really good..
- Swoard ability to offer flexes, sizes etc...: We do NOT think it is outdated to provide this possibility, and think the only way to provide good boards is to match its rider size/weight...More a custom like attitude than stock market. It is outdated by brands that are marketing oriented, not by shapers or semi-custom productions!
- The Swoard board is NOT a race board, it is a simple versatile carving tool, with an exceptionnal edgegrip, no matter what the snow is like... It means ice or softer snow... It is strange that the tester has difficulties carving it above 20 mph since everyone sees on the videos, or seen in real (viewing or trying it) that the board is able to go way faster, carve and NOT loose an edge.. He describes a typical backside chatter that comes often when the rotation turn technique is not done properly... It is very hard to master anyway, I even need to make mine better after 3 years of training for it...When the rotation is improperly done, the backside edge looses and chatters at the tail, and nothing can really be done...
- Entry level riders: Assuming the board is for begginers and not for racers is a very good compliment thank you... It means we have achieve a high performance tool ( we can prove it on vids and pics, and in real ) that even a beginner can ride without getting killed... No, the actual board cannot win a race ( although i'd love to see it race under a good rider ) but it isn't designed for it...its made to freecarve and do extremecarved turns...
- Last but not least: We are waiting for similar films like ours, shot on anything like a burton T6 with a guy linking laid turns on a 30° slope
As we said many times previously: we're not saying the Swoard is the best board on the market, we just pretend its the only board that can achieve what we do on the movies...and now its also a beginners board so!! We are still waiting for people doing the same moves on a different board! (the"step backwards" shape might have some advantages?)
If the board made the tester happy for a while its a good thing! Let me precise here again, and it will be all: We are doing Swoard by passion, not just for the cash that may come from it... We all have jobs that are in totally different fields, and are not going to stop those jobs... What we want is to provide something different for a discipline we developped, the idea is to give everyone a thrill, not to pretend we rule or are the best around or outrun everyone!!
Hope this clears a few ideas and answers the tester's not so bad feedback!
Nils
PS: we have no rep anywhere! Jean-Paul is kindly spreading the good news about EC in south america that is all!
The 175H board is meant for riders in the 84 to 95 kilos range, and above 181cm. I am currently 190cm and 80 kilos and I find the H flex way too stiff for me and have difficulties turn the board.. This is why first of all i'd like to know the tester size/height. IF he happens to be out of the size/weight range, then its like running a marathon with shoes 3 sizes bigger or smaller....Not really good..
- Swoard ability to offer flexes, sizes etc...: We do NOT think it is outdated to provide this possibility, and think the only way to provide good boards is to match its rider size/weight...More a custom like attitude than stock market. It is outdated by brands that are marketing oriented, not by shapers or semi-custom productions!
- The Swoard board is NOT a race board, it is a simple versatile carving tool, with an exceptionnal edgegrip, no matter what the snow is like... It means ice or softer snow... It is strange that the tester has difficulties carving it above 20 mph since everyone sees on the videos, or seen in real (viewing or trying it) that the board is able to go way faster, carve and NOT loose an edge.. He describes a typical backside chatter that comes often when the rotation turn technique is not done properly... It is very hard to master anyway, I even need to make mine better after 3 years of training for it...When the rotation is improperly done, the backside edge looses and chatters at the tail, and nothing can really be done...
- Entry level riders: Assuming the board is for begginers and not for racers is a very good compliment thank you... It means we have achieve a high performance tool ( we can prove it on vids and pics, and in real ) that even a beginner can ride without getting killed... No, the actual board cannot win a race ( although i'd love to see it race under a good rider ) but it isn't designed for it...its made to freecarve and do extremecarved turns...
- Last but not least: We are waiting for similar films like ours, shot on anything like a burton T6 with a guy linking laid turns on a 30° slope
As we said many times previously: we're not saying the Swoard is the best board on the market, we just pretend its the only board that can achieve what we do on the movies...and now its also a beginners board so
!! We are still waiting for people doing the same moves on a different board! (the"step backwards" shape might have some advantages?)If the board made the tester happy for a while its a good thing! Let me precise here again, and it will be all: We are doing Swoard by passion, not just for the cash that may come from it... We all have jobs that are in totally different fields, and are not going to stop those jobs... What we want is to provide something different for a discipline we developped, the idea is to give everyone a thrill, not to pretend we rule or are the best around or outrun everyone!!
Hope this clears a few ideas and answers the tester's not so bad feedback!
Nils
PS: we have no rep anywhere! Jean-Paul is kindly spreading the good news about EC in south america
that is all!
Is it negative? Hmm, he says, that Swoard does not provide same stability in high speed as race boards and that's probably true, so I don't think that he is too negative.
One thing with Swoard is that it is much more flexible in longitude than race boards and you don't have to shift weight forward/backward during turn in same extent as with stiffer board. I had problem with nose overweighting in the beginning, as I was used to F2 Silberpfeil with Conshox (which was quite stiff combination and you had to move weight in order to bend board). Perhaps this is one reason (apart from wrong flex) why he had folding problems?
About speed: I used Swoard for amateur racing in spring (not best board for race, but I did it just for fun) and my time for ca. 400 meter course was ca. 43 seconds (which was much-much slower than winner's time, but I was able to carve almost whole course without skidding and this was real achievement for me! ). This makes average speed 32 km/h or 20 miles and I felt no problems (though this speed was near my riding limits). So I agree that 20+ is really enjoyable. Above that I have no experience (or measured data) but it could be, that at 30 MPH it could be more unstable than racing boards, especially in soft conditions (due to its softer flex).
Additionally from Physics of a Snowboard Carved Turn one can see that speed 30 MPH (or ca. 13 m/s) is well beyond real carve radius of 13 meter sidecut and EC style probably does not help here either. So perhaps he is trying impossible against laws of physics?
Anyway, I feel myself quite happy with this board and enjoy 'Ride the Edge' turns @ 15 MPH. Damn the reviews, full forward
One thing with Swoard is that it is much more flexible in longitude than race boards and you don't have to shift weight forward/backward during turn in same extent as with stiffer board. I had problem with nose overweighting in the beginning, as I was used to F2 Silberpfeil with Conshox (which was quite stiff combination and you had to move weight in order to bend board). Perhaps this is one reason (apart from wrong flex) why he had folding problems?
About speed: I used Swoard for amateur racing in spring (not best board for race, but I did it just for fun) and my time for ca. 400 meter course was ca. 43 seconds (which was much-much slower than winner's time
, but I was able to carve almost whole course without skidding and this was real achievement for me! ). This makes average speed 32 km/h or 20 miles and I felt no problems (though this speed was near my riding limits). So I agree that 20+ is really enjoyable. Above that I have no experience (or measured data) but it could be, that at 30 MPH it could be more unstable than racing boards, especially in soft conditions (due to its softer flex). Additionally from Physics of a Snowboard Carved Turn one can see that speed 30 MPH (or ca. 13 m/s) is well beyond real carve radius of 13 meter sidecut and EC style probably does not help here either. So perhaps he is trying impossible against laws of physics?
Anyway, I feel myself quite happy with this board and enjoy 'Ride the Edge' turns @ 15 MPH. Damn the reviews, full forward
Converting potential energy to kinetic..
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rilliet
- Swoard & EC founder
- Posts: 714
- Joined: Tuesday 26 March 2002, 10:39
- Location: Lausanne, Switzerland
- Contact:
Everyone is free to say what he thinks about our boards.
But these few words tell me this guy is right: "Crossing the fall line I rolled onto the other edge."
Rolling onto the other edge when crossing the fall line will for sure not allow any good EC turn at good speed. It may perhaps work at a very low speed on hero snow.
If this guy had read our technical pages he would know that the edge switching must be done when riding perpendiculary to the slope (for EC style of course).
For us, the Swoard board and the EC technique are intimately bounded to master the best EC turns possible...until someone proves the contrary.
Jacques
But these few words tell me this guy is right: "Crossing the fall line I rolled onto the other edge."
Rolling onto the other edge when crossing the fall line will for sure not allow any good EC turn at good speed. It may perhaps work at a very low speed on hero snow.
If this guy had read our technical pages he would know that the edge switching must be done when riding perpendiculary to the slope (for EC style of course).
For us, the Swoard board and the EC technique are intimately bounded to master the best EC turns possible...until someone proves the contrary.
Jacques
It's almost a bit funny to see some of you get personal about it. Bordy never attacked anyones riding style, nor did he dismiss your boards as "crap" or anything of the sort!
to the guy that said bordy's style is ugly...well...youre high, man. Straight up. Ive been pretty impressed with pics of him. Would love to see film of course since its definitely the deciding factor in judging someones style. But his style is far from ugly, just different than that which most at this site are proponents of
anyway...just keep it objective, fellas. The review was fair, well written, and comes from someone with a long, long track record in alpine riding.
to the guy that said bordy's style is ugly...well...youre high, man. Straight up. Ive been pretty impressed with pics of him. Would love to see film of course since its definitely the deciding factor in judging someones style. But his style is far from ugly, just different than that which most at this site are proponents of
anyway...just keep it objective, fellas. The review was fair, well written, and comes from someone with a long, long track record in alpine riding.
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nils
- Swoard founder
- Posts: 3043
- Joined: Friday 22 March 2002, 19:22
- Location: Lyon, France - Swoard team
- Contact:
Yes agreed!
Please keep it on facts, not on style judgment... ( I personnaly think Bordy's style on the pics is pretty good, and would be far from doing the same turns on a race board!)...
N.
N.
