New Swoard model: the DUAL > All details!

Support and threads about extremecarving or freecarve/freeride Swoard boards

Moderators: fivat, rilliet, nils

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Post by snowcarver » Wednesday 6 January 2010, 14:30

Happy new year @ all and Congratulations to your new creation which looks very nice to me!

If I understand you correctly, the boards performance and characteristics depend mostly on the kind of boots I use with this board?

Then only one thing is missing in your product line: the DUAL-Boot!

Soft enough for perfect freeride an powder conditions, and mechanically adjustable, stiff enough for linked layed turns.

Due to the fact, that it is very hard to find good hard boots, it is may worth to think about a development of some boot like mentioned above....

Have a nice day and a lot of snow this year!
Achim
Keep on riding!

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Post by rilliet » Wednesday 6 January 2010, 15:19

docrob,

The original feet position will allow perfect on AND offpiste riding. The setback is 28mm on the 158, 30mm on the 168 and 32mm on the 175.
Then of course everyone is free to test any other settings.

The feet angulation depends on the kind of boots you want to use. Softboots needs low angulation because of the lack of lateral muscle strenth, hardboots can be used with any angulation but I suggested 40°F / 30°R because is is a good start.

If you want to do some EC turns with the Dual, you will have to respect the rule number one for this discipline: no (or very few) boots overhang. This means that you must have small feets if you want to do it with softboots. US11 may be too long.
I have US12 so I can't do EC with softboots even with the Dual 175. I have to use hardboots and have more angulation.
docrob wrote:Normally I favour left foot forward duck at 15 degrees with both feet
You mean +15°F / -15°R ?

Jacques

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Post by docrob » Wednesday 6 January 2010, 16:03

Thanks, Rilliet; yes ..like a duck!
My soft boots are quite stiff, and the K2 Cinch CTX bindings also. What would the minimum foot angulations be on the 168 and 175 to avoid overhang, but still get enough leverage to develop the carves?
Presumably I could have both feet positive.
Would risers help?
I'm not to go extreme on the soft setup, but just to freecarve.


I also asked some questions by email.

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Post by nils » Wednesday 6 January 2010, 18:44

There is NO rules regarding settings, settings are a personal thing related to technical level, goals, geometry of body, feet size etc...
There is theory, good sense ( no boot overhang if rider intends to ride with board vertical on the snow), and trial and error ...
Try first to put boots with no overhang, and then modify every hour until you find the sweet spot or best settings for you.

Nils

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Post by rilliet » Wednesday 6 January 2010, 19:39

Nils is right also because there are still many things to discover with the Dual.
For EC I would use positive angulations because you will need it in backside EC turns. But you have to know that today none has been able to do a proper backside EC turn with softboots and low feet angulations because this too low angulation makes the back facing the slope resulting in a bad body position. Patrice did it with hardboots on the pictures. Anyway, frontside EC turns are quite easy with softboots IF you have a very small overhang.

Jacques

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Post by starikashka » Wednesday 6 January 2010, 20:16

rilliet wrote: But you have to know that today none has been able to do a proper backside EC turn with softboots
Hmmmm :-)
i`m learning

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Post by rilliet » Wednesday 6 January 2010, 20:35

starikashka wrote:
rilliet wrote: But you have to know that today none has been able to do a proper backside EC turn with softboots
Hmmmm :-)
I didn't say that. I said: "But you have to know that today none has been able to do a proper backside EC turn with softboots AND low feet angulations..." :rules: :wink:

Jacques

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Post by docrob » Wednesday 6 January 2010, 20:53

Yes! I heard that a lot !
Rilliet, I think you enjoy setting down this challenge to the boys ("noone did it yet")! The pix would sure be good advertising !?

Hey, Rcrobar / Rilliet, what stage are you in Kg and cm (up, not round!)?
I read your notes on the other page about lively versus float -choosing between the 175 and 168, but your comments would mean more if I knew how big you are.

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Post by starikashka » Wednesday 6 January 2010, 21:17

rilliet wrote: But you have to know that today none has been able to do a proper backside EC turn with softboots AND low feet angulations..."
Sorry Jacques, i missed a whole point :-) it does not make a difference :-) Let`s add some more pepper - freestyle board :-)
i`m learning

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Post by docrob » Saturday 9 January 2010, 22:33

Rilliet,
One last question!
168 or 175 ??????????????!!!!!!!!!!!
I only did a few half days on snowboard, but can ride reds now in a smooth controlled way. I learn fast with a background skiing, windsurfing in waves, kitesurfing and motorcycling (I like to turn!) Weight out of shower 76 Kg, height 180cm.
I decided to get the Bomber T3 stepin and Deeluxe 700 hardboot to use with the your DUAL.
I also got the prior ATV for powder and learning carving (I need one board in New Hampshire, and one to use in the European Alps). I will use the same bindings and hard boots on both.

****I want the DUAL to learn and enjoy freecarving all over the mountain. It is more important to also be able to make tight turns between the trees if necessary, than to board in very light powder. Is 168 best??***

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Post by rilliet » Sunday 10 January 2010, 10:22

docrob wrote:****I want the DUAL to learn and enjoy freecarving all over the mountain. It is more important to also be able to make tight turns between the trees if necessary, than to board in very light powder. Is 168 best??***
So the 168 will be better for you and don't worry, it will be great in very light powder too.
docrob wrote:I decided to get the Bomber T3 stepin
Unfortunatly these bindings WILL be much too stiff laterally for the DUAL because you will use quite low angulation. Intec are fine on narrow alpine boards because the efforts are mostly transmitted through the side of the boots.
With a wide board and low angulation:
1. you need to be able to move your body along the board.
2. the board needs freedom to bend.
You would better take the new Bomber Sidwinder or a F2 Race Titanium.

Jacques

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Post by docrob » Sunday 10 January 2010, 12:58

Rilliet,
Thanks so much! I'm glad you told me this before I got the T3 bindings.

Will the sidewinder bindings also be good with the 175 Prior ATV ?

Would the sidewinder allow extreme carving AND freecarving
as in the picture, AND make learning/perfecting freecarve easy?
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Post by docrob » Sunday 10 January 2010, 13:39

Rilliet,
I also forgot to mention this comment by Fivat in "Dual or Extreme carver" topic:
"Dual:
Since you are only a hard boot rider, you may prefer the Extremecarver. The Dual is good for soft boots too and for freeriding, what you don't like if I understand well."

I also wondered if Fivat was freeriding using hard or soft boots in the mountain pix in your PDF. I enlarged the picture, but cannot see clearly.

I want to walk away from the top lift to find the powder and freeride down through the trees, then when I reach the piste below I want to work the freecarves and eventually extreme carves hopefully on the way to the bottom lift.
Will the sidewinder and those Deeluxe 700 hard boots (US11) be a good combination to do both types of riding on one setting (when I find it) with the DUAL 168 and the Prior ATV 175 ?
One Michelle at Bomber online recommended the step in T3 for the Prior ATV for this use.

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Post by Felix » Sunday 10 January 2010, 21:23

I have never tried the sidewinder, but since longtime hoped for plate bindings with much more sideplay. There is however much more to freeriding with plates than the binding question.

Walking with good alpine boots is not really fun. On the other hand models like Raichle 121 are not much fun for riding, and have a much longer sole than softboots (which should not matter that much, as even with sidewinder bindings I think riding angles like 5/25 are out of question because of missing flexibility - not even worth thinking about going duckstance with plates...).


I never ride hardboots offpiste anymore, even though on a splitboard hardboots are much nicer on ascent than softboots. It really depends on how and where you want to ride if hardboots offpiste are really a solution (especially in the US prices for good soft bindings and boots are a steel if you look around - I buy most of my softbootequipment - except boards - in the states even though shipping and import tax usually double the price).

Jacques has already been on the sidewinder last season AFAIK, but he still recommends softboots for freeriding (or I missed him writing about how the sidewinder changes this).
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Post by docrob » Sunday 10 January 2010, 22:05

Interesting post Felix; thanks.
How they walk doesn't bother me. ("Like with rock boots "No pain, no gain!?)
Yes; I buy most of my outdoor gear in the states; but order it to our US address. I could never cope with the duty to europe.
I agree that it would be preferable to use softboots for freeride. But I don't intend to change halfway down the hill!
I'm reading that the best COMPROMISE with these all mountain boards that are capable of decent carving/have decent carving performance (DUAL/PriorATV) is hard boots. I am also reading that it may be sofboots if we can avoid overhang!
Like many such sporting "nubs", getting it right is critical.
I only have a few days to decide. I need to keep the learning curve as steep as possible, so, yes, I ordered the 'winders. If I have both, I can figure it out myself !!
Happy new year!

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