Structure on base?

Post by **kjl** » Wednesday 9 March 2005, 2:35

I read the "Instruction Manual" on the swoard.com page and it says that Electra4000 works best when smooth as possible, and it recommends not putting any structure on it at all. Unfortunately, here in California, sometimes the snow is so hot it turns into sticky slush and the very smooth surface turns into a giant suction surface (or so it seems). Would it negatively affect the performance of the board on regular snow if I get a large-scale crosshatch kind of structure cut into board for the wet slushy days?

Thanks.

Post by **harald** » Wednesday 9 March 2005, 9:01

Interesting question because I have to fight with the service repair shop not to structure the base when I have to leave my Swoard in for heavy repairs. So it would be interesting to hear from the experts, Jacques and Patrice, what will happen if the base is structured, purposely or by mistake.

Post by **István** » Wednesday 9 March 2005, 9:05

A couple of month ago I discussed this issue with Frank / Virus when I saw that new F2-s have really deep cuts on the base. In Frank's opinion it is purely marketing.

Well, I think one needs to have a masters in physics to judge this, but as far as I know these complex and deep structures are not used in racing.

On the other hand we all know golf balls, the skin of the shark, the surface of B&W loudspeakers, etc...

Cheers,

István

Post by **Arnaud** » Wednesday 9 March 2005, 9:14

Base structure could be useful for standard base, but not for 4000 Elektra. This base is carbon/graphit filled, and it seems that physic of glide is a bit different from standard one. Electrostatic forces play a role.
More on : http://www.dominatorwax.com/snowfriction.html

We have also discussed this point in the french forum here : viewtopic.php?t=1342
Electrical measurement on waxed / unwaxed area shows a big difference.

FYI, I have sanded my base with 600 sandpaper and waxed it with graphit wax. It works very well.

Arnaud

Post by **nils** » Wednesday 9 March 2005, 9:52

ahhh the marketing graal of wintersteiger diamond stone machines!!!

A structure is surely a plus in wet snow, but it seems the less structure the base have on cold snow, the better the glide.... and meanwhile, wintersteiger, the leader in base / edge machines has pushed the ski/snowmakers into the idea that deep structures were the best to have..
We have tested our protos with stone finish from Frank, and they stuck litteraly compare to our old bases, so we asked him to sand them down using sand belts! All the new Swoards 2D / 3D will have the sanded bases like the previous series!

I have seen a WC slalom ski from Jean-Pierre Vidal, that he used in normal/cold snow, and the structure was almost inexistant... the base is polished almost! ( 4000 Electra or 4000 Race series)....

Now when u enter a shop, and the guy has invested 40 000 euros in a wintersteiger stone machine, he is not going to tell you that all you need is a flat structure that an old sand belt can do!! He is going to push you to get a nice diamond shape structure etc .... and he will explain you from a to b how faster it is ( he surely rarely rides 4000 electra boards or alpine snowboards anyway...)

This is why i'm barely going to get the base done, despite the stone "lines" on it and small scratches... I will do it after the third season , because i need the edges flat again and they are impossible to polish at home

.

So believe in what you feel under the feet, not what the marketing tells you to believe!! Wintersteiger makes machines twice as expensive as the previous one, they are good at making the base flat, and good at grinding the edges or structuring for wet snow, but on the other side didn't we lost overall glide quality?

Nils

Post by **harald** » Wednesday 9 March 2005, 10:34

Arnaud and Nils,
Thanks for the answers. In Zinal I had a deep cut in the sole that had to be repaired professionally. When turning in the board I said "no structure" and it was written down on the repair tag. When picking up the board, the shop had made a fine structure despite my clear message and then the argumentation (or quarrel) started. Finally, they took the board back to the sanding belt but said that the board would glide poorly, despite my explanations, Electra 4000 etc. Back home I spent an hour sanding with 500 and 600 to get the sole back as close as possible to its original smoothness, but still there is more work to do.
It seems to me that these "professionals" are not as professional as they want to be. So be careful, you better stand besides these people watching them when fixing your board so they will have the chance to do anything wrong.

Post by **kjl** » Wednesday 9 March 2005, 19:05

Hi - thanks for the replies - I guess I should clarify my question a bit.

I know putting any structure on the base will reduce the board's performance on dry snow. But currently, say my performance on dry snow is 10, and my performance on wet snow is 1 (it is really terrible; it feels like I've got the brakes on in wet snow). If I stick a wet-snow large-scale structure on the base and it increases my wet snow performance up to, say, 6 or 7, will it really destroy my performance on dry snow (to 3 or 4) or will it still be acceptable (8 or 9)?

I have actually not had my base or edges treated since I bought the board last year, because I am so worried they will wreck the base or bevel the edges to the standard 1 degree they seem to put on everything now...

Post by **Arnaud** » Wednesday 9 March 2005, 19:53

kjl wrote:my performance on wet snow is 1 (it is really terrible; it feels like I've got the brakes on in wet snow

I'm surprised, because I have used my Swoard with "polished" base last year on wet snow (translucent snow in afternoon) and glide was OK.
So I don't understand the need of large structure ....

Post by **Felix** » Wednesday 9 March 2005, 21:18

Yeah, forget about structure.

I had my f2 in a structure machine.

1. It didn't turn easily anymore
2: It was damn slow

So at least it was a structure for medium cold snow. -6 deegres by Wintersteiger

I sanded it at home and put new wax on straigt away. I have as well a Slalom Race department ski, this ski was factury tuned without any big structure. Really tiny, still I would love it without it.

Post by **harald** » Thursday 10 March 2005, 13:36

My experience is that Swoard glides very well in wet snow with an appropriate (soft wax) for example Swix CH 10 and no structure. The largest problem with really wet snow in my opinion is not the speed or glide, but that the board (any board or ski does that) digs too deeply. However, Swoard handles this problem best.

Post by **kjl** » Thursday 10 March 2005, 19:29

OK - you guys talked me out of it. No structure; better wax.

Thanks!

Post by **pokkis** » Thursday 10 March 2005, 20:30

My experience is similar with few above, on wet gliding really sucks

so i will run structure on base next time i will bring our Swords to my local shop. This might also altitude issue cause here we ride on bout 200-800 meters above sea level.
I have structure on all other boards (except on my Tanker and only cause i have not taken that yet to shop) and all others have great glide, but hey that is just me

and i'm riding my board mainly on softies

so dont count on my opinions

ExtremeCarving FORUM

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