It actually worked!!

[keepTheSport]

Hello,

I am new and couldn't seem to find a continous introduction thread. Anyway, I have visited this site on and off over past year and obviously now joined.

I really want to try the extreme carving invented by Jacques and Patrice but it will take some time until I can afford a Swoard. However, what I wanted to say was I picked up some really good tips and links from here last night plus all previous readings, the penny finally dropped and I knew in my head what I had to aim for. So today at Glenshee in Scotland (on a Nidecker, Angel 2008 and soft boots) I started to change the way I turn and it really improved my edge hold on steeper slopes. I still am amazed

I know you guys are purists and I have a +15 -15 stance but I have got to start somewhere until I can get a Swoard. Anyway, I was trying to remember to turn with the hips first ( and not pressure the board with my toes/heel), also to have legs bent across the turn and to push my legs away from me (after I had changed edge)once going into the turn, and then to pull my legs back.

I want to say I didn't even try to do a 'laid turn', as I need to basics first but what I did change worked!!

Of course I was not perfect but some bits were becoming second nature. I also noticed that going from toe to heel edge on a very chopped and slushy steeper slope that my heel edge was holding more times than usual and slashing through the big lumps of snow instead of me bouncing my way down them on this toe/heel turn. I wasn't losing control of my speed so much especially on steeper slopes. The pressure on my legs felt totally different going into and out of the turn, things just felt good!!

I shall practice this until I feel more proficient, then I will start to change the angles on my board and see if I can manage with positive angles both front and back. It will be interesting to try.

What can I say but thanks for all the tips, links and dedication to a spectacular discipline:D

One more thing, I may not have a Swoard yet but at least I've got a board that is Swiss and made in the same factory

[Abrax]

Exactly, proper rotation technique works miracles...

Anyway -> keeping -15 / +15 angles will cause your knees hurt in a very short period of time.

If you really aim at Swoard, try changing this to +5 / +15, than +20/+20 and next step with Swoard +40/+40 . One of the main points in this style is a turn which starts when you almost squat on your legs just before the turn. This is impossible to achieve when your angles are -15 / +15, because this minus angle keeps your rotation away.

Swoard board makes a big difference. I mean BIG and when I say this I mean REALLY BIG. With Swoard, you won't need perfect conditions to be able to EC.

Anyway this is completely different style than carving on + / - angles.

[keepTheSport]

Hello Abrax

Thanks for your pointers. Your suggestion of changing angles slightly each time is just what I had planned. I shall be on snow again tomorrow so this time I will try some + angles on both feet eg front foot +15 back foot +5. With these angles I am only changing back foot really so I hope to get on at least as well as I did on Sunday. Maybe later in the day I shall try +20 on front, + 7 on back. I appreciate your warning about a knee problem could occur being duck stance and your tips on how this inhibits rotation-thanks.

Yes I would love a Swoard and hope to get one towards end of this year

[Abrax]

We usually set our angles with maximum difference of 7 degrees. I personally use +45 / +45 which suits me perfectly.

Now you do have 30 degr difference. You've written that you will try +15/ +5 (so 10 degr difference ) and then 20/7 which is 13 degr different. If you aim in EC, please consider to change from duck, go +15 / +5 which should show you how this works and should allow some rotation then go directly to about +35 + 30. This should allow for nice carving and push-pull.

The faster you change your habits, the sooner you lay down!

[keepTheSport]

Hello Abrax

Okay I will be braver and go from +15/+5 in the morning to +35/+30 in the afternoon

Thanks again

[vizsyn]

Hi Sport!

I am a very recent convert to hardbooting after 16 years on soft equipment. On my freeride boards I generally run on about 24front 10 back, which admittedly helped my transition to 55front 50back on a SWOARD a bit easier. The duckstance is all the rage here in the US, I've tried duckstance +15front -15 back before, and while it was versatile for riding switch, it did prove very limiting for trying to practice rotational turning, as Abrax has accurately pointed out. I was never much of a jibber anyway, I always preferred to cruise...

I myself am still in the process of totally re-programming my turning technique, fully embracing the Swiss rotation turning principles. It has not become totally instinctive yet, but it has worked wonders for me, compared to how I used to turn(counter-rotation) . I get a lot of comments on how "different" my turning looks, even from snowboard instructors at the resorts I go to, people say that it looks like I'm turning without even trying. A few days ago, I hopped back onto my freeride board and successfully taught rotation technique to an absolute first-timer, getting her to successfully link basic turns on her snowboard within 3 hours of instruction ! I am totally SOLD on rotation!

EC-wise, I am still in the very early stages of learning alpine, but it's coming along well. I am fairly strong on toeside/frontside now, I am hoping to get solid and strong on the heelside/backside before the end of this season. I am currently trying to master non-EC push-pull technique, and I hope to be able to successfully link EC hopefully by middle of next season.

[Abrax]

Be brave and cut grooms!!! But please consider blue slope first (don't learn on black)

In my case complete transformation has taken about 15 days on snow. I mean from total contrrotation to successful laid rotational turning. Old habits are extremely hard to eliminate. But when you teach one from the beginning, rotation seems most natural

[keepTheSport]

Hi

I appreciate people sharing their changeover experience.

Well I am not long back from trying out Abrax's advice. Initially, I done one run +15 and 0 and then spent rest of day on +30 +27 Yaaaaay Admittedly I was quite rubbish but I got to start somewhere and my turns were still better than before. I done this on red run as it made me concentrate more, as my mistakes were appearing. There are so many things to remember almost at once!! However, I loved it I also found traversing in opposite direction strange as I was not able to face in the direction I was travelling (as in duck you can) but I loved that too! I really am a convert now and I won't be going negative on back foot anymore (unless I have a park day but I shall get a different board for that).

I usually have music playing whilst on slopes and of course BREATHE came on I have watched the video of Jacques and Patrice so many times over past year or so, and that has helped me visualise what I should be doing. The rotational technique is getting imprinted onto my brain! I just wished I had started this season doing rotation as most of the snow has gone but I live in hope that the snow gods will bless us again I know you guys in Europe are having a ball

I wouldn't say I am such a quick learner as Abrax and Vizsyn but I am persistent.

I can't wait to get some hard boots and plates let alone the Swoard! I'll keep an eye out for second hand stuff. Any advice is most welcome.

Anyway, my technique from being a beginner was using foot pressure and using the knee to help round off turns I have never used my upper body to help the turns, I've always held upper body as still as possible (which I've done okay with to be honest), is this classed as the 'counter rotational' style???

Cheers

[Abrax]

Now the only thing left is to place a video link, so we could share our thoughts with you... Please consider slope trip with a friend who will make a movie from the bottom of the slope, GoPRO or any other camera attached to you won't do a thing. Just a plain movie of your ride.

+30 / +27 seems good! I think that you should stay with this setup for a while.

Listening to music may be dangerous as you don't hear incoming missiles (skiers going straight downhill at you)

It's great that you like the style! When it comes to technique progression, you can do no better than coming to the EC meeting (SDT or PCS)

There are so many things to remember almost at once!!

Instructors say that you should change maximum of 2 things at once. Except you have very good muscles memory and you adapt easy to a new kind of movement.

[Abrax]

One more thing:

I've always held upper body as still as possible (which I've done okay with to be honest), is this classed as the 'counter rotational' style???

IMO: NO. If you mean this:

But you can discover what is it all about here: http://www.learn-snowboard.com/basic-co ... -turn.html

And rotation here: http://www.learn-snowboard.com/basic-turn.html

And check the drawings here -> http://www.inplus.org/shaman/kontrrot.html

"zle" = bad
"dobrze" = good

[keepTheSport]

Hi Abrax

Cheers for more help. I think I will stay with the +30 +27 for a while as at these angles I definitely noticed the difference.

After looking at the links video and reading stuff, I'm beginning to wonder what kind of snowboarding style I had All I know is I kept shoulders parallel to board most of the time unless I fell, and pressured with toe or heel to make turns, with the aid of bent knees (dobrze 'B')to help the toe/heel pressure and I was told to stand up between each turn to unpressure the board. I could do cross over turns quite well but these would fall foul the steeper the slope where I couldn't control speed very well and I would lose heel edge in particular. However, since trying the push-pull technique these errors are starting to go. I was pleasantly surprised (with my new angles) that I managed to keep in a straight line while speeding down a short steep bit and carrying speed onto the flat. It also seemed as though I was going faster with this new set-up and I seemed to have more stable balance on my heel edge whilst going straight???

I'll keep reading your links, to understand a bit more, and I meant to mention I have watched Ben's video quite a few times too. I should try and break things down like in his video.

Not sure when I will get another practice as most of the snow has melted But so far I've ended on a high note and if no new snow comes, then there is always a 'fridge'

I have every intention of joining the yearly EC meet, I even thought I might have managed the March/April 12 but that is looking doubtful, so 2013 it will be.

There seems to be so many experts on this site it is quite daunting but I shall persevere

[keepTheSport]

Okay, in case anyone thought my new membership and excitement was a passing fad...

...I am now the proud owner of a carving board and proper F2 bindings which I bought from Kieran (one of the Scottish members here). I met with him at Scotland's only fridge where he gave me lots of advice and help including set-up

I absolutely loved using the hard-boots (although they were ski boots) on the board. Abrax, I think you will be pleased my angles were 55F,50B which felt great I have also bought Deeluxe Le Mans (second hand) and they should be with me this week.

Seeing as this type of snowboarding is not so well known especially over here. Kieran done a grand job of advertising it, as folk kept speaking to him about his set-up and he made everyone on the slope look slow and rubbish

As for me I was just pleased to get up the poma and be in one piece at the end of the trial Nobody on this site tells you that when you get off this kind of set up and put civilian boots on your feet, that you walk as though you're drunk and can't quite find your legs Thigh muscles that I didn't know existed were brought into play with this set up I'm glad I'm trying this out now and didn't just turn up at an EC session after being duck, there's no way I would have lasted a day doing this stuff let alone 3.

Eventually, I shall get round to owning a Swoard. Advice I received from Keiran seems to match with what Abrax was saying re a 168S would be okay for me. I shall progress and decide.

Cheers everyone

[vizsyn]

Bravo!

Having very recently joined the ranks of alpine riders myself, it is very exciting to see you in the fold as well!

I'll have to wait till next winter to continue my learning process, the US just went through the fourth-warmest winter on record. I wish there was a "fridge" nearby but they are almost non-existent in the US.

Keep in touch!

[keepTheSport]

Bravo!

Having very recently joined the ranks of alpine riders myself, it is very exciting to see you in the fold as well!

I'll have to wait till next winter to continue my learning process, the US just went through the fourth-warmest winter on record. I wish there was a "fridge" nearby but they are almost non-existent in the US.

Keep in touch!

Thanks Vizsyn for your encouragement.

That's rotten having to wait to next Winter, as no snow and no fridge --aaarrrggghhh! Do you wind surf or maybe you're not near surfy places either I may be wrong but from reading, the surfers do the kind of 'push pull' stuff that is a major part of EC laid turn. No doubt you're really good already Anyway, just a thought

I keep looking at people doing duck stance now (as some people refer to it as MC Hammer style - you know who you are )and thinking they look a bit odd Gonna' have to change me' picture now

Yeh, one more thing these carving boards are faaaaast, lucky I know how to skid

[keepTheSport]

Now I can announce that I have boots yaay Deeluxe Le Mans and they are a good shade of blue, that's all I know about them.

I expect I shall need the Abrax spring system to help forward lean?