Good stuff and good conversation.
fivat wrote:-----Fin, it's interesting to see that you are experiencing things similar to what we (the Swoard team) experienced in 2003 when we introduced our wide board Extremecarver Gen1 (while the market was focusing on narrow boards). We could not give our board to the people without any explanation, without any advice, etc. It was a lot of efforts, and apparently you also need now to spend a lot of energy to change people mind. The labor is never over, and after 8-9 years we still have to explain and demonstrate basic things.
Ha, you said it brother! Resistance to change is a human event. Not that all change is good, but if we did not try, it would just be so damn boring!
fivat wrote:-----For me, using a (stiff!) plate WITH modified boots (springs, etc. making them softer) AND flat bindings giving good lateral flex, is a big paradox, a non-sense at extremecarving. But I'm ready to make some serious tests!
This is one of those issues that is hard to wrap ones head around and for sure a paradox. The plates are essentially "stiff" (as compared to the snowboard under them). But this does NOT translate to a stiff ride. Funny enough, what universally happened was it was found that a plate "softened" ever board it is put on. The plates ability to allow the board to flex freely without the rider trying to stomp it flat, made all boards feel softer. Right away all the board manufacturers that where making boards to be used with plates had to make their boards slightly stiffer (about 10% was a number I heard, but cannot confirm). And more so in the nose area. We confirmed this ourselves when we took some old "planks" off the wall that where considered too stiff and put a plate on them. Absolutely made them softer. So if you do try a plate on the Swoard, it might be necessary to go one up on stiffness. Only trying will confirm this though.
That said, we do find plates ADD torsional rigidity to the snowboard. This make sense when you look at how it is mounted. Of course this is only the area between the feet.
fivat wrote:-----For good extremecarving we recommend riding flat (no canting). When stopped (or in his sitting room), the rider may feel uncomfortable. But when riding, there is a natural canting because the board is bent. (See this very old thread from July 2002!)
With a plate, which is totally stiff, there is of course no natural canting. The extremecarver may feel uncomfortable and can't balance his weight from one foot to the other as he is used to. Some adaptation is required I guess, and this may imply a return to bindings with canting?!
Correct observation, Fivat. Look at the picture below. This shows what happens during a turn with a plate on top. The board is decambered in a nice un-effected arc. But the riders is on a flat unaffected surface. With a plate, there might be an advantage to use cant/lift as your board is not bending your feet towards each other. The essence of the isolation of the plate.
Admittedly, this effect is kind of spooky and strange when you first ride it. How many turns have you made where your feet come together each turn!? No you dive into a turn and......feet are in the same spot! Like I said, strange at first.
Here is a great video Sean with Donek Snowboards made showing the effects of a plate using some very effective visual tools:
https://youtu.be/9xKE0xcN0Oc
fivat wrote:----- and actually less than 1% of the alpine riders are *really* racing
Shoot, is more like .25% race in the US! The majority of our business is free carvers and frankly the future of the sport.
harald wrote:----- From sports that I know (skiing, windsurfing, bicycling) the plug and play innovations have succeeded and survived, the complicated other ones, in spite of their good intentions, have been for the very special interested. But in the end, the market will decide and pick the winners. So go on and let us see what happens.
Agree and I have always been a fan of KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid). But there is always room for improvement. Using your bike analogy, if you have been riding Mnt bikes as long as I have we went from no suspension, no disc brakes, 10 speed based bikes. They worked and they where fun. But now that I ride full suspension, hydraulic disc braked, and 20+ geared mnt bike, I'll never go back. And the kicker is today's bikes are even more reliable and better built, and in some cases even LIGHTER than those bikes of 20 years ago. You can have your cake and eat it!
Abrax, not 100% sure what you are showing here but if I understand right, it looks like the system does not have a connection between each foot? If not this has been done with the Hangl system and F2 also has something similar. The HUGE difference between this and a single plate based system is they still allow the feet to move toward each other or twist in a different plane. So a large part of the isolation function is just not there.
Once again, plate are NOT for everyone and I think they are not to be used to attract people to the sport. Adds too much to an already "involved" set-up. It is a specialized tool to be used for the right reasons. Up to you if those reasons are what you are looking for.