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Transistor Rhythm
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Post by Transistor Rhythm » Thursday 20 January 2011, 22:02

How can I detect a counterrotation motion from a still picture? She could be holding her upper body still, rotate it in the other direction or counterrotate it.

I think WinterGold's style looks very racy because he has a very low body position and does not overrotate the body (I think of a heelside EC turn as an overrotated heelside turn, exagaration of normal rotation), but he is not focusing down the fall line like GS and SL boarders.

Shorter (carved) turns down the fall line, most of the people use a bit of counterrotation there. Like the carve masters movie somebody posted. I like that kind of carving as well, nice for less steep slopes. Going fluently from one turn type to another to adapt to the terrain is the best kind of snowboarding in my book.
Fridgecarver

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WinterGold
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Post by WinterGold » Thursday 20 January 2011, 22:13

You are right, Transistor Rhythm. But if the counter rotation is really strong (like my example picture from the CMC movie), then the upper body reaches a bad ("weak") position. You can see this in a picture and I thought that starikashka meant that as a "mistake". But I am not sure anymore.

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Tiger
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Post by Tiger » Thursday 20 January 2011, 22:19

starikashka wrote:Tiger, what your experience tells you about counter-rotation?
There is a big difference between racing and freecarving. When you ride free you try to carve the whole turn and you control your speed by crossing the slope line nearly at right angle. On the race track the gates force you to initiate the next turn before the last one was really complete. To control your speed you don't carve the whole time, you have to drift into the turns sometimes.

The best position of the body for stable carves is when you always rotate with the board. This leads to the usual freecarve technique which allows full carved turns even on steep slopes. The disadvantage of this technique is that you are "locked" in the carve and it's difficult to change your direction before the turn is completed. Your riding will benefit from a lot of stability but the geometry of your board and the slope will mostly dictate your timing.

On the race track you need more flexibility but you don't need fully carved turns. In this case the best position is when your upper body always stays close to the slope line. You can easily drift into the turn and finish it on the edge and you can easily control the timing because the board does not get "locked" on the edge. Actually the racers don't counter rotate, the upper body does not rotate at all (depending on the point of view). It always faces straight downhill, only the board changes the direction. The big disadvantage of this technique is that the board is restricted in its movements because you can not twist your body unlimited. This is no problem when racing because you don't want to do laid turns or to be very stylish by always staying on the edge, the only things that matter are speed and the possibility to react quickly. You can use this technique for freeriding, too when you want to ride fast on icy, narrow, bumpy or steep slopes but it never will look and feel as smooth as riding with proper rotation.

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vkrouverk
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Post by vkrouverk » Thursday 20 January 2011, 23:04

starikashka wrote:Come back with this theory when it became practice or someone who applies this theory will be presented:-) I do not understand this, really.
Here are couple of pictures from JJ Anderson, man who does not need to be introduced. IMO they are first-class examples of aligned body position: notice how boots, legs, hips and shoulders are all facing same direction.
http://www.jaseyjay.com/images/Download ... derson.jpg

http://www.jaseyjay.com/images/Download ... gl_psl.jpg
Converting potential energy to kinetic..

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starikashka
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Post by starikashka » Friday 21 January 2011, 16:18

Tiger wrote: ....There is a big difference between racing and freecarving..
Thanks, Tiger. After reading your post i have few thoughts:
- fully carved turns decrease maneurability but let you control the speed and stability
- racers sometimes do not complete the turn and need to do all they do to make a next turn before completion
- freecarver does not need to apply race technique elements if there is no need to change directions before turn is completed

Am i understand correctly?

Next questions
- how racers are controlling the speed and stability?
- is it possible to change direction before turn completion without applying race technique elements such as counter-rotation, drifting etc. when riding with similar speed?
WinterGold wrote:But if the counter rotation is really strong (like my example picture from the CMC movie), then the upper body reaches a bad ("weak") position
This particular counter rotation you talking about if different. Hips are not moving that much. Talk to Curt :-))))
Transistor Rhytm wrote:How can I detect a counterrotation motion from a still picture?
Lucas :-) Of cource you can`t spot counter-rotation by still picture. But i can guarantee that if you want to make sure and check the video - you will find it.
i`m learning

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starikashka
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Post by starikashka » Friday 21 January 2011, 16:34

vkrouverk wrote: Here are couple of pictures from JJ Anderson, man who does not need to be introduced. IMO they are first-class examples of aligned body position: notice how boots, legs, hips and shoulders are all facing same direction.
http://www.jaseyjay.com/images/Download ... derson.jpg

http://www.jaseyjay.com/images/Download ... gl_psl.jpg
I tried to find his videos in internet, but fail. Just found his short crash. Is there anything in appropriate quality availiable?
i`m learning

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Transistor Rhythm
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Post by Transistor Rhythm » Friday 21 January 2011, 16:37

starikashka wrote:Lucas :-) Of cource you can`t spot counter-rotation by still picture. But i can guarantee that if you want to make sure and check the video - you will find it.
Video would be better, where can I find it?
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Post by Willow 15 » Friday 21 January 2011, 17:21

This is an interesting thread. I think a lot of the problems and near flame throwing comes from translation.

Here is some JJA footage from Bomber.

http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/s ... =jasey+jay[url]

For what its worth I started riding hard set up in 86 and raced for a few seasons and if I had to state my riding style it would be very much like Wintergold's.

I am off to France next week so I will get some footage on my SL board to contrast and compare with Wintergold's riding. Then let the flames comense if I counter-rotate :D
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trp7
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Post by trp7 » Saturday 22 January 2011, 14:25

@WinterGold congratulations, very good style! do you use soft board also?

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WinterGold
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Post by WinterGold » Saturday 22 January 2011, 15:24

Yes, I do :D ... How could you tell? :wink:

I have a BX, a powder and a freestyle board. I ride all of them with softboots.

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starikashka
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Post by starikashka » Saturday 22 January 2011, 17:11

Transistor Rhythm wrote:Video would be better, where can I find it?

Willow 15 wrote: This is an interesting thread. I think a lot of the problems and near flame throwing comes from translation.
I do not think so. Despite most of speakers are not native English :-)

Willow 15 - thanks for the link. Do you know where i can find old videos from Super G races?
i`m learning

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Post by trp7 » Saturday 22 January 2011, 17:22

WinterGold wrote:Yes, I do :D ... How could you tell? :wink:

I have a BX, a powder and a freestyle board. I ride all of them with softboots.
your tricks and technical skills make me think you use hard and soft gear, and so it is! :bravo:

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Tiger
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Post by Tiger » Sunday 23 January 2011, 14:06

starikashka wrote:Next questions
- how racers are controlling the speed and stability?
- is it possible to change direction before turn completion without applying race technique elements such as counter-rotation, drifting etc. when riding with similar speed?
Question 1: I think stability can not really be controlled, it's a result of a good riding technique matching the conditions. Speed can be controlled by two techniques: While carving, speed is controlled by the angle at which you cross the slope line (acute angle = high speed, flat angle = more deceleration). Alternatively you can add some friction which means no more carving but more or less drifted turns. Racers use a combination of both techniques. By doing wider (carved) turns the crossing angle can be changed but you have to ride a longer distance which costs time. This leads to the usual technique with a short drift into the turn to control speed (if necessary) and then passing the gate on the edge.

You can see this in this video (2nd run):

Question 2: You can always interrupt your turn and start the next one by putting the board on the other edge. But you have to add a momentum to break the balance of forces which enables us to do stable, carved turns. Some possibilities are body rotation (counter rotation by "kicking" the board around the turn which can often be seen by beginners or pre rotation into the new direction), cross-over / cross-under or push-pull technique.

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