A bit of SL Love

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starikashka
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Post by starikashka » Wednesday 19 January 2011, 21:04

WinterGold wrote:.. in my books ... - it is just an English saying - it means that for me a racing technique doesn´t really exist, because there is no special technique for racing. Racers just use different technique elements and combine them for their own purpose. But nevermind ...

Advantages for freecarving? An advantage for what? That is the question!

The SL in the title just refers to slalom boards and not to any race technique.
Ok, sorry my misunderstanding. I just connect in my mind your slalom boards, videos and some of your words.

What i consider a good technique for a freecarving. It is a set of skills to steer a snowboard that help the rider to ride on any kind of surface keeping speed, stability, maneurability and not spend much of energy, i.e. have fun for a whole day.It is about advantages that i seek in racer skills.
WinterGold wrote: There is no counter rotation that I´m aware of. Maybe you have a different definition what a counter rotation is.

Sometimes it can happen if you hit a bump, etc. (see the picture taken from your mentioned CMC video).

Maybe you can post a few screen shots where I use counter rotation?
I call counter-rotation that movements when rider`s body moves against the direction of the turn.
For example if regular rider does backside turn his left hand and shoulder moves forward a bit. This turn upper body and hips against the direction of the turn. Do you agree with that definition?

I do not like the idea to make a screenshot because static picture is not illustrate my point. Would you like to get a PM with a time of your videos where i spotted what i call counter-rotation?
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Post by Tiger » Wednesday 19 January 2011, 21:35

I like this riding style very much. It's really versatile, it looks good and it feels very good to ride. Maybe we should meet for a SL-board session some time, I think this could be great fun :)
WinterGold wrote:There is no counter rotation that I´m aware of.
I agree that there is no significant counter rotation but you sometimes stop to rotate with the board a short moment before you finish the turn on the backside. This looks a little bit like counter rotating. But actually the body still rotates in the right direction it only does not keep up with the movement of the board. An indicator for this is when the back arm moves behind the body. I think that's what starikashka is talking about?
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starikashka
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Post by starikashka » Wednesday 19 January 2011, 22:08

Tiger wrote: I like this riding style very much. It's really versatile, it looks good and it feels very good to ride.
It`s all matter of taste :-) I personally do like when rider moves like water stream - fast and smooth, whithout any significant visible efforts.
Tiger wrote: I agree that there is no significant counter rotation ..... An indicator for this is when the back arm moves behind the body. I think that's what starikashka is talking about?
Counter-rotation is not a penis so size does not matter :-) if it is significant or not :-) But you understand what i`m talking about.

P.S. i think guys you know each other :-)
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Post by WinterGold » Wednesday 19 January 2011, 22:17

starikashka - feel free to send me whatever you like! I´m very interested!
But two things - I´m not using active counter rotation to improve my range of possible rotation and a slight counter rotation in certain situation would be no mistake for me (how can it be when world class riders do it :wink: ?).

Tiger - Who are you :wink: ? Your observations are always spot on. You seem to have a very good eye and a good feeling for what is going on. I also like the fact that you found the "worst" turn in my whole video. The one I wanted to cut out and somehow didn´t, because this scene is a different location and I thought it would make the video more interesting :D ...

(My question "Who are you?" is serious. Are you an instructor? Or trainer? Or something? Maybe a short PM :wink: (in German if you want!))

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Post by Abrax » Wednesday 19 January 2011, 23:02

Hey, calm down...

Ease....

Too much offense I can feel in the posts...

WinterGold, in CMC.jpg You show us clear counter-rotation, but if it fits Your style it is nice :-) I don't know any rider who uses clear rotation without moments of counter rotation... In my opinion it should be fluent, but generally rotation style is less dynamic. Your video is very dynamic...

The photo shows, that You will turn the other side in a moment... When I analyse my friends rotation style, You can't say if the next move will be another turn or vitelli stop...

I understand the counter rotation by intention to turn left before the right turn is even done...

And rotation is different, You make right turn, You finish it and THEN You start the left turn...

In any of above situations Your body follows Your intention...
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Post by vkrouverk » Wednesday 19 January 2011, 23:07

WinterGold: I like this video, very nice riding. Riding on back (around 1:00) is something I haven't seen this done on board...
starikashka wrote:What i consider a good technique for a freecarving. It is a set of skills to steer a snowboard that help the rider to ride on any kind of surface keeping speed, stability, maneurability and not spend much of energy
If you want to have most efficient technique, then so-called athletic position is the key. Athletic position means, that your body is supported by skeleton and to maintain position minimum muscular effort is needed.
In order to obtain athletic position one has to keep body aligned and centered. Centered means that weight is distributed equally on 2 legs. Alignment means that ankles, knees, hips and shoulders are axially aligned.
Key elements for athletic position: legs should be flexed, knees bent, thighs come up in front of the body, torso slightly inclined forward, back relaxed.
If you can keep this athletic position then transition from one turn to next means that you release an edge and project your center of mass across the board starting next turn.
Disclaimer: this is theory, don't look me riding to see how it's applied in practice :twisted:
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Post by starikashka » Thursday 20 January 2011, 11:04

WinterGold wrote:starikashka - feel free to send me whatever you like! I´m very interested!
But two things - I´m not using active counter rotation to improve my range of possible rotation and a slight counter rotation in certain situation would be no mistake for me (how can it be when world class riders do it :wink: ?).
I do not want really to dig your videos and tell you where you are doing the things which you want to avoid. Your reasonable selfcriticizm can do this better than me.

World class riders do what they want to do, for them counter-rotation is not a mistake - it`s element of their technique.

If i do avoid counter-rotation and spot that i have this - i consider it is as my mistake. Because i do not want it.

I told already that my interest is to understand which benefits i can get from the elements that racers are using, if there is no racing technique "in the books". I was talking to you just because somehow i decided that you are racer. Not sure if i can get this from you. Maybe Tiger can help?
vkrouverk wrote:Disclaimer: this is theory, don't look me riding to see how it's applied in practice :twisted:
Vahur :-) you are great photographer :-)

Come back with this theory when it became practice or someone who applies this theory will be presented:-) I do not understand this, really. But statement that weight has to be equally distributed does work only for limited amount of the situations which makes me think negative about that theory.

Abrax? What are you talking about. This is a calmest discussion about racing that i ever take part in :-) Do speak about racing elements advantages for a freecarving.
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Post by WinterGold » Thursday 20 January 2011, 14:54

starikashka - you know my videos, so you know how I ride. You decide for yourself if it is "race technique" or not. Why are you not sure now?

I guess you would have to tell us which elements you want to learn about? So far I know that you want to avoid counter rotation. Good. What other elements are you interested in?

I already answered your question, why I use the technique I use. Anything else you would like to know?

And your description of a good technique - I totally agree, although I´m not much concerned about the energy I need. Certain techniques might need more energy, but I can ride all day the way I ride and it´s ok for me if I´m tired in the evening (I even like it :wink:).

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Post by starikashka » Thursday 20 January 2011, 15:42

WinterGold wrote:starikashka - you know my videos, so you know how I ride. You decide for yourself if it is "race technique" or not. Why are you not sure now?
Because you told me that you are not using counter-rotation and your style is not really racing.

Also - in those videos me and other people can see counter rotation. Words and facts are different. Then you agree that some counter-rotation exists. Your opinion now changed because of facts.

Would you trust the guy who`s words different from the facts and who are easily changing his opinions? That`s why i`m not sure. Sorry.

Also you are editing your videos for some reasons, so it`s not a valid for a purpose of that discussion and not increase my trust :-)
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Post by harald » Thursday 20 January 2011, 16:19

What is the purpose of this discussion? As long as Wintergold and others are enjoying themselves with speed, control and a lot of different skills under their belt it seems OK with me. Rotation is fine in some situations. In other situations we have to counterrotate. Its the same in skiing (carving). I cannot see the problem. Rather, go on the slopes, practice and enjoy yourself. Look at Caspercarver. He seems really to enjoy himself and having a good time whatever his technique(s) is/are named.
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Post by starikashka » Thursday 20 January 2011, 16:48

harald wrote:What is the purpose of this discussion?
I do not know what this whole thread about. The purpose of my discussion with WinterGold is just to know more about race style elements, what i ask him by mistake.

It is not about to state that something wrong with his or some others riding style. During the discussion i just pointed out that some of his words are not comply with his videos.

That`s all :-)
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Post by WinterGold » Thursday 20 January 2011, 17:31

harald - very good point!

starikashka - I think the discussion now goes in the wrong direction.
I thought you would be interested in certain elements of the technique I use and that was your question, but you keep coming back to just one aspect - counter rotation (which is neither important for my technique nor very important for most racers).
I haven´t changed anything in my discussion - I´m not using counter rotation as an active element in my riding. Maybe it sometimes happens (just as in your CMC example!), but I don´t do it on purpose.
I only said that even if counter rotation is used in general, it is not a bad technique! (again I am not using it myself on purpose! Tiger has explained the phenomenon you might see very well).
And counter rotation can be seen in screen shots very well (just take my example!).

But let´s assume you are right. What is the point??? What are you getting at?

Edit: In my videos there are lots of linked turns without any editing. Not sure what you mean? You don´t have to trust me. I don´t want to sell anything to you :wink: .

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Post by Tiger » Thursday 20 January 2011, 20:24

WinterGold wrote:My question "Who are you?" is serious. Are you an instructor? Or trainer? Or something?
...neither trainer nor instructor, I think "something" is very close :wink:

In the "golden age of alpine snowboarding (tm)" we had no youtube and no website about extremecarving (the word wasn't even invented). We had to find out and develop our riding techniques on our own. So I started to analyze what's going on while I ride my board and to watch other riders to find out the secrets, and I do this until now. No one could teach me a vitelli turn (maybe serge could but I never met him) so I had to develop my own technique. After I was able to ride it I shared my knowledge with my friends. All this helped me to get a good imagination about the pyhsical processes while riding a snowboard. Combined with some knowledge about mental training this helps me today to learn new sports (like supermoto which is my newest hobby) very quickly and to get a good feeling what's right or wrong and how things work.
starikashka wrote:P.S. i think guys you know each other
...I don't think so but maybe we can change this some day :wink:

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Post by starikashka » Thursday 20 January 2011, 20:43

WinterGold wrote:starikashka - I think the discussion now goes in the wrong direction.

Yes, but i do not want to drive it there and talk about you and your videos anymore. It`s looks too personal and sensitive topic. Let`s stop it.

I do not agree with you talking about counter-rotation is not important for most racers. It is one of the most visible elements of racing technique.

Image

This lady took a world cup. Does she counter-rotate?

I believe that this element is widely used by racers and would like to know why.There should be a theory behind that.

Tiger, what your experience tells you about counter-rotation?
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Post by WinterGold » Thursday 20 January 2011, 22:00

You are right. Let´s drop it. It doesn´t lead anywhere.

(Picture - the body is pretty much aligned. I don´t call this counter rotation. Or at least not very much. There you have our different views!!!)

You are asking Tiger, so just one or two lines from me and then I´m out :wink: ...

I have already told you why racers use a bit of counter rotation - in order to increase the range of the following rotation into the turn. Racers need to be able to react very fast in order to stay on the best line. So they sometimes counter rotate at the beginning of a turn (remember that they often drift at the beginning of a turn!) and then they have a certain room for "positive" rotation without reaching a bad (over-twisted upper body - not stable) position. Legs, hips and upper body stay almost in line (or at least close to it) and so they have a "strong" position (balanced, ready to react).

That´s it from my side. Keep having fun on the slopes! Use whatever technique feels good :wink: !

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