Hardboots off-piste

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Fox
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Hardboots off-piste

Post by Fox » Wednesday 15 May 2002, 6:36

Wow. First time I ever registered for a forum, and am currently overwhelmed with the options and smily face derivations. Alas, the snow is melting and so is the amount of response to this or any other board.

While I wholeheartedly agree with extremecarving.com's assesment of the unfortunate dying of hardbooting, I do not think that the answer is so limited. Yes, the carving I have seen here is awesome. Next year, I will be turning my cants flat and trying to dedicate some days to replicating the turns I have seen here. They were inspiring.

That being said, I do have a problem with the freeride section. This is one of the things I think has contributed to the demise of hardboots. The arguments that usually support freeriding in softboots would not hold up with skiers, yes we do different things, but snowboarding is more like skiing than it is skating or surfing. :x (had to try it out). I have ridden with people skiing mountaineering setups in leather boots. Incredible ability, but never can they do the things that a guy can with a pair of Technica TNT's. Why is this? Well, even if the skill is there, with soft boots, even though you "feel" the snow, you lack the ability to apply edge pressure with the force and precision that you can with hardboots. If it were otherwise, you could take your softboots and point them forward and carve the same turns. But you can't.

I ain't the best rider, but I can take HB's and point them forward on a freeride board and match every turn that a softbooter does in powder. Most SBer's in powder do big wide turns and J-slides. On top of that, I can hop bounce turns behind a skier, doing a figure 8 as well. On top of that, in iced out bumps, one can make twice the amount of cleaner turns than a SBer with HBs. It is about edge pressure. I know you guys realize this, because without edge pressure we would have no extreme carve. It is undeniable that one can develop greater and more focused edge pressure with hardboots. Problem is, it is better done at steeper angles and on a different board than the usual or extreme carving.

You guys talk about "feeling the snow" in softies in the powder. Man, I have ridden both and feel the snow even better in HB's - with softies, you feel the board, not the snow. It is a better tool (HB's that is) for directing edge pressure.

I am not trying to cause problems here, because you guys are the first to share my view that this sport is dying and needing change. Manufacturers have died out, shops have stopped carrying our gear, and we are left to the internet to discuss such things - transatlantic I might add. It is a sad state of hardbooting when guys on different continents, seperated by a huge ocean, have to discuss the decline, but we are doing it, and I am thankful that you speak my language better than I speak yours, for we share the same goal. The goal of getting hardbooting back to the growth it needs! :D (had to try it again).

I guess my point is this. You guys are doing some incredible things. I am thankful for your honest assesment of this sport that you will find nowhere else. From your posts and pictures and movies, you have convinced to change my riding style while carving, because you guys rock! 8O (had to try it one more time). No matter what people say on other sites, I have yet to see people doing what you guys are doing. But, the salvation of our sport does not lie ONLY in carving. We will never succeed if this is our only goal.

You guys have it right. Let us take carving to the extreme, but than let us take 5 minutes, switch our stance and switch our boards, and show what HB's can do all mountain (off-piste). This complete picture is what is to save us gentlemen, not the HB's on the groom and SB's off-piste.

So, I'd like to see you guys tell me why softboots are better than Hardboots off-piste. I'll disagree and try to promote this sport as much as you.

Great site guys.

Peace. :twisted:
Hardboots are meant for more than the grooms.

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Post by rilliet » Friday 17 May 2002, 9:03

Hi fox,

Patrice and I never said that soft boots are better than hardboots.
After having been riding the powder for years in hard boots, we just prefer the soft boots feeling in powder.

We both only go off piste if the conditions are really good: powder and no track. In these conditions strong edge pressure does not exist.
Otherwise we are extreme carving on hard piste in hard boots...

Unlike on piste, hard or soft boots is really, off piste, a personal choice for us.

Jacques

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Public Perception

Post by rcrobar » Friday 17 May 2002, 22:21

Hi Fox, Jacques

I would like to add to your thoughts.

To most of my friends bombers are something from a world war II movie, extreme is the price of a pop and popcorn at a movie and carving is what you do to the turkey on Thanksgiving day. They have no idea that a passionate crew of snowboarders, that pledge allegiance to the carve, exits on the snow and over the internet.

At the same time snowboarding is everywhere, beer ads, phone ads, you name the product and you will find a snowboard attached to the product in some way. Snowboarding is huge. What affect does all this media attention have on my friends, they all want to try snowboarding. People of all walks want to try it, the old, the out of shape, the non athletic, the very cautious. They all think it looks like fun and want to be apart of it.

So why is our "carving" aspect of the sport in decline?

PUBLIC PERCEPTION of hardboots by people just like my friends.

What happens when I suggest to these keen beginners that they try snowboarding with hardboots? The reaction is almost always the same.

"Hardboots are for the racers."

The public perception is this:
Hardboots = racers
Softboots = recreational riders

Hardboots = steep stance angles
Softboots = relaxed stance angles

They see hardboots as "VooDoo" magic that is not for them.

In order for our slice of the snowboarding pie to grow, it must be more accessible to the general public. The average guy going into a store needs to believe/understand that hardboots are OK for him to try and buy. They need to know that there is another choice besides the softboot.

If the public won't buy hard boots, manufactures won't make them.

Try selling hardboots or a skinny board with a square tail at your local ski swap, most times you can't give them away. This is exactly the problem that has lead to our carving decline, skinny race boards that the public sees as only for the expert rider/racer. Experience with my new to snowboarding friends is that the very high stance angles, that the skinny board lends itself to, scares them away. When was the last time you saw a beginning snowboarder, with soft boots and a freeride board, coming down the hill with his feet at 60 degrees? Can you blame them for shying away from race/carving gear? They don't want carving gear because to them it means racing boards with steep angles, which is for the expert.

If we want our sport to grow to the point where our gear is available in most every sports store, public perceptions about hardboots specifically must change. This will be ONE aspect of our fringe sports' salvation. New boarders need to understand that hardboots can be used in the powder or on the packed runs, with both skinny boards and high angles or with wide freeride boards with mellow angles.
It's all OK, it's all good.

Getting the hardboots on the new riders feet early is the first step, teaching them how to carve rather then tail skid is the second step. Create a base of people who may not be experts, but love their hardboots, and a percent of these riders will find their way to the magic of the carve. In turn our sport will grow exponentially. Public perception of hardboots themselves will play big role in the growth or decline of our sport. So get your screw drivers out and tell people that hardboots are a great choice for any board, through a variety of stance angles, in any snow condition.

Rob

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agreed

Post by nils » Friday 17 May 2002, 23:11

To be franck guys what we need now above all is press coverage... i'm not desperate and i'm sure next year will see some articles on what is shown here.. I'll try to convince some guys i know in the business here in france to help us...This and some targeted ads from carving companies ( F2, Hot... in the press will relaunch a tired machine....)

Keep faith in the future, its gonna be great, and we gonna be part of it :)

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Yes, we keep faith in the future!

Post by fivat » Wednesday 29 May 2002, 23:40

I remember an old (stupid) press advertising from Burton 10 years ago. They predicted that skiing would disappear quickly for the benefit of snowboarding...
Here is the reality 10 years later: skiing is again successful while snowboarding expansion is decreasing!

Now the companies and the publicity agents (who use the word "extreme" for everything, damn #@*&¢ :evil: !) want to make us believe that the use of soft boots is the only way to snowboard (and to be cool)...
They are wrong again!
Snowboarding with hard boots (carving, extreme carving, racing or even freeriding) is going to regain many fans! 8)

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Post by twentyhundred » Monday 5 August 2002, 1:28

:P
Hardboots are not dead and I've seen more hardboots (in Europe) on the slopes last season than the previous ones. They're back !

I believe people who go riding as often as we do realise now what hardboots bring them: total control on the board, however the snow is, higher speed with better acceleration, SENSATION !
My hardboots loved 1,5 meters of fresh snow in Utah, one of the lightest snow on Earth. Locals were amazed but guys I've been in America and Europe, in many different resorts, with many different conditions and I can tell HB are the ultimate tool for riding.
It's a bit less confortable than softboots, a bit harder on the legs but it's worth it !

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Post by ablazespy » Thursday 22 August 2002, 13:15

Some guys I have been riding with said: hey when I walk on SB its more nice to me. Then I say "These boots aren't made for walking". On the slope I use my HB on a narrow board with steep angles and they eat my dust, off the slope I use a wide and stiff board With low angles and they still eat my dust I am not saying to be the best snowboarder around, I just want to make clear that HB win in speed and control everywhere. May be I will lose while doing groceries at the shops :lol:
No really the shops and manufacturers have there mind set on SB. I had to visit about ten shops to find HB for my girlfriend and there where even second hand.
Also a person of a boarding magazine told me the action on carving is low and readers want people to fly so I said we can fly for you on HB's.
The last problem I want to mention are teachers last winter two girl were sent back to the rental store because the teacher refused to take them into class with hardboot! thats sick I think.
There must be a way to get HB back on track again I am a marketing graduate and this site should be the first step to the big picture more of us have in mind. lets promote HB and Carving among friends and their friends .
8) yes I have also seenmore HB in Europe last year :lol: :lol: C.U. Dènis/ablazespy

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Post by A carver from Holland » Tuesday 5 November 2002, 8:30

Harboots....softboots....i always say: softboots are for people with sensitive feet :-) Seriously, where i taught people to snowboard i always recommended to use hardboots, since the board control is better, HB give better support to the feet, etc. I guess HB are not widely used, because when people go to a store to buy them, they only walk around in them for about 5 minutes. In 5 minutes HB will definitely NOT be comfortable. It took me 6 months before my HB were getting comfortable. People always choose the easy way. I guess it's in their nature. Hardbooters are a different kind of breed. We not only enjoy snowboarding, but keep pushing ourselves on the slopes to learn new technique, to increase speed, etc.

About flying.....last year i saw a hardbooter take a 2 meter ramp and did a 360. The softbooters mouths were wide open :-) I even ride my skwal (17 cm waist) with hardboots in the powder. Just give me a race board and hardboots and i can do the same as a softbooter (ok, almost everything).

I think it's a perception question, which is fed by the manufacturers. People believe what Burton, Duotone, Forum, etc. say. People are influenced quite easily. Now it's time to set the perception straight!

Just some thoughts........

Arjan

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pokkis
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HBs

Post by pokkis » Tuesday 5 November 2002, 11:04

Take a look what you can do with HBs

http://www.pokkis.tk

and select Clip

Some of you might even regognise film :?:

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Re: HBs

Post by fivat » Wednesday 6 November 2002, 14:46

pokkis wrote:Some of you might even regognise film :?:
Yes, this is "Hard Hattack" (1994), with Antonin Lieuthagi.

This is a rare movie with hard boots (that was sold in the shops) :cry: and probably the best one of the nineties (using hard boots) :!:

Note that there are some laid turns in the movie. But they are not linked: only isolated turns, ending with no speed (or no getting up) :(

Anthonin Lieuthagi is a legend for his triple backflip! His style was amazing in the nineties. Now he rides with soft boots only and is still an excellent freerider. He loves other extreme sports: I have seen him recently in my parachuting club, close to Geneva :P

-Patrice Fivat

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Post by pokkis » Wednesday 6 November 2002, 16:04

Yes it has been favorit since it came on shops.
You never get tired some portions of that, amazing speed with amzing short boards :D

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hard attack

Post by nils » Wednesday 6 November 2002, 16:24

indeed hard attack is a cool movie :) i lost the tape in one of my movings... who has it ? who could digitize it onto a VCD or Divx???
pleeease heeelp

if anyone meets Antonin, please tell him we need the movie reedited

the board they use in the movie is actually the lacroix freeracing model ( beginners model) similar to the freesurf Rebel )
amazing what can be done with such board uhh? :) the action vids when they follow each others are great :)

also something is amazing: antonin had begun snowboarding only a season before the film, he was previously a member of the french gymnastic team...(explaining the loops ability )

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Post by pokkis » Thursday 7 November 2002, 19:28

Yes that film has highest priority on my tape collection, even higher than next best ones, PureCarving tapes where they destroy well prepared corduroy of Aspen :D

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Post by skywalker » Thursday 12 December 2002, 10:32

o.k., I would like to tell You, how everyone of us can help carving / hardboot-snowboarding to grow again: I tought snowboarding my little sister,some of my friends, my ex-girlfriend... and will do so after X-mas in my holidays. Each of them learned boarding with hardboots, because I believe, You have to learn a better riding technique than with softboots. And it's easier to avoid counter-rotation! My Sister an some of my friend already stertet teaching snowboarding to their friends... in hardboots!

Last wekend I've been to Flims-Laax, we had wonderful slopes, few people and I carved rather deep. Many freeriders were impressed and I told them to buy hardboots, plates and to visit the extremecarving.com site.

What I'm trying to say is: everyone of us is part of the game... and can help carving to grow!!! So go out, show them what You can and tell them, that they are able to do so, too. And if You have to jump, jump high!!! They will like it! Show them, that it is fun, pure fun... not only one week, but one life...

Have much fun ;-)
and lots of snow
lai down deeply!

Tom

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Post by tigger » Wednesday 12 November 2003, 19:51

hy i m so stoked!! :clap2:
just downloaded the video and its soo cool, in 94 i did my first turns (like the snowboarders they frighten to death in these onslope scenes) 8O
what i like most is the liene between the hills they choose , and the way they destray those snowlips, i m shure they are surfers. and the out of control speed , and the backflips and the powder, the drops..............its great
can you host it on your server?, i think everybody shold see this!!
thanks phil :D :D :D :bravo:

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