Rocker-based vs. swallowtail - which is better in pow?

[Tenhauser]

Since all major manufacturers are promoting rocker-based technology (which is quite old, actually) the question is whether these rocker-based snowboards can match the swallowtails (pogo, swellpanik etc) in powder (high-speed stability and maneuvring) and versatility on piste?

[nils]

i'm not sure to understand the hype with that rocker based tech....
Its like in big wave surfing: boards with too much rocker are hard to keep flat on the wave surface and tend to loose balance and stability.

Anyway since i haven't used it, i cant really say, but i'd rather stay with my ST with 25 years of proved experience in the shape than ride a marketed fancystuff...

What model are u specifically thinking about?
N.

[pokkis]

Rockers rule
On and off piste

[Tenhauser]

i'm not sure to understand the hype with that rocker based tech....
Its like in big wave surfing: boards with too much rocker are hard to keep flat on the wave surface and tend to loose balance and stability.

Anyway since i haven't used it, i cant really say, but i'd rather stay with my ST with 25 years of proved experience in the shape than ride a marketed fancystuff...

What model are u specifically thinking about?
N.

I am thinking of asking Kafi make a rocker-based Global prototype

No, seriously, i don't beleive rocker is that good....Sure the rocker base does help with float but it acts as double edged sword when your are on piste...

[Felix]

I rode a couple of rockered boards last year, the only one that I liked was the K2 Gyrator in 168cm. I would fancy to testride the new tanker, as I'm sure Ralph would not promote a board that behaves as shitty as other rockershapes once you get a fair amount of speed.

Not really good for open space, but nice for forest and tighter stuff. I would like to know how the new tanker behaves, because I am not a fan at all of short boards in powder.

If you go on really steep (>60°) stuff rocker is also not mine.

Rockered boards simply don't go straight like a swallowtail will do, also sticking jumps is much trickier compared to swallowtails which land dead stable as long as you go straight in the pow.

Also the longest Lib Techs did not give me the stability I expect from their length.

On the other hand I tend break at least 2-3 freeride boards every winter, so I prefer to buy used >190cm boards, cut a swallowtail and don't mind if there are some rocks in my path or if the takeoff from a cliff is rocky.

Cutting a swallowtail into conventional longboards is quite nice. I don't see why I would need rocker on top.

Rockered boards are quite good as a one piece quiver, but if you can afford more boards, rather take some swallowtails and pintails instead for powder. Especially as Swallowtails perform much better on piste for carving.

[Schneewurm]

Sidetask:
Last weeks I visited some sporting good stores. I was suprised how many rocker-boards are now on the shelves - up to 40-50% of all boards in some stores are filled up with this "new" shapes! Amazing: Also many of the boards for the kids of 7-12 Years are banana-board-types!

[Rob Stevens]

High speed stability? Not so much. As others have pointed out, the nose wants to wander around.
Manoueverabilty? It's got that. The precurved shape really wants to turn.

On shorter boards used by people who will only have one board, it will work better in powder, but not as well on hardpack.

Alot of you guys seem to ride the big ST's, so just the length of these boards alone keep the nose on top, so I'm not sure if there would be much benefit.

That said, I would love to have the chance to try all the shapes out in the right conditions... My experience is with Lib Skate Bananas against flat and rockered fishes, vs. Volkl swallowtails. None of them had bindings, so you really noticed what the board wanted to do without the rider getting to overpower it.
For me, the best ride was the conventional fish. The Volkl was too fast and the rockered boards, while quick to turn, always wanted to turn, sometimes when I just wanted to go straight.

[Hans]

Since all major manufacturers are promoting rocker-based technology (which is quite old, actually) the question is whether these rocker-based snowboards can match the swallowtails (pogo, swellpanik etc) in powder (high-speed stability and maneuvring) and versatility on piste?

There are already rockered swallowtail snowboards on the market. So I think you have to be more detailed about this.

Rockered skis and snowboards are not new. They were already existing in the early days. Now they are back again. Those rockered boards are very easy turning on and off piste. They have a very good icegrip, I can tell you.

[fivat]

Here is for example the opinion from the guys at Apex snowboards:

What do you think about the new technologies used by the main snowboard companies (ex. Reverse camber, ecc)?
Nearly all companies have this reverse camber thing in their programs. We think this is not positive for modern snowboarding. If you love speedy turns in powder and some carving on slope to it’s important that you use an board with according effective edge. Also in park, pipe or riding Big Air kickers.

Other brands have the same opinion and experiences. It's interesting.
I won't particpate in the debate. Too much work because of the season start.

Patrice Fivat

[philwi]

I think it's a false dilemma.

The rocker stuff is hugely hyped, but that's just hype. I suspect they may be easier for beginners to ride as they can probably be cranked into a turn by brute force easier than a traditional board. That's not hugely relevant to more experienced riders though.

Last season I rode a Lib Tech Snow Mullet 1986, which is not like any snowboard I remember from 1986, but there it is. It has this buzzword attached to it, amongst other fashionable things. But then so do the recent Fish, and those are unrideable with proper bindings and they're rumoured to be a retrograde step.

Anyway, you can feel the rocker a bit if you're riding high in powder, but that's about it. If you're in the deep stuff then I think it's just irrelevant. The tail may or may not be rockered (can't remember), but it works the same as a standard powder board tail in deep snow. I tried a few different lengths and the tails feel the way you'd expect - too long and it feels like it's pushing you out, rocker or not.

I'm not sure completely how boards really work in deep powder, but it's not the same way a race board works on piste. You're not really cambering/ decambering it through the turns I think ... it's more of a surf than a carve. Hence although I know tail stiffness is hugely important in powder, I'm not sure how the rest of the board surface actually works. The nose is right up front, and if the board flexes at all it would be in reverse camber normally anyway, no?

The OP asked about high speed/ manouverability, and versatility on piste. I don't ride powder boards on piste so I can't comment on that. Mullet-style boards ride short and they're twitchy, so a bigger board would out-accelerate them, but they'll be hard to catch through the trees.

[nils]

i agree with that
Something that is also totally underrated in powder boards is the flex
Contrary to a surfboard that basically does not flex, a snowboard has a complex flex behavior, and from the so called powder boards i've tried to up to date swallowtails with lots of thought behind, there is a lot to be gained.
In Powder i'm not sure having a rocker camber is really a plus compare to a swallowtail with strong front flex and nose power.. in powder you are almost all the time turning slightly and want to keep the board as flat as possible to gain speed (this is why ST are so great because u do not need to lay on the back foot)...

In surfboards also the rocker is a very complex figure: give too much lift and u add manoeuvrability, but loose speed and the balance between scoop ( nose rocker) and lift ( tail rocker) is what makes a good shaper in surfboard...

We'll see how this hype goes and stays or not anyway....marketing will tell

N

[pokkis]

When you say that rocker is not good for powder, do you refer big open steep rides with mega speed or tight forest rides?
For me atleast they both require different tools to get most out of it
Regards
-Rocket man

[nils]

pokkis you ask ( wise man) a right question: depends on speed:

Slow speed / tight turns : ok maybe rocker base adds easyness: but is it really better than a lets say 175/185 cm ST?

Fast speed / big long turns: there you need to keep the board flat as much as possible ( nose down), and i do not see how a rocker base can achieve this....

N

[philwi]

Yes, a good question, and a fair point. I ride mostly trees - Monashees powder, often trees top-to-bottom. So I don't see many STs, but lots of Fish-type tapered boards.

Longer boards accelerate quicker, and you can notice that if there's some glacier stuff to ride. Once up to speed this seems less important. Usually in a heli I'll start last and finish first, on glacier or trees with skiers or boarders. Snowboards are plenty quick enough for me in these circumstances. Different terrain may change the equation.

I don't personally think the rocker (in the Lib Tech) makes much difference to the board's performance in trees. I'm not saying it's "bad", just "not very relevant". The "magne traction" (!) in the same board is similar. It's a sort of crinkle-cut edge. Perhaps that helps the board work on ice, but it's just not relevant in powder. So in my view both of these things are hugely fashionable and marketable, but I'm unconvinced that they actually do anything. Kind of like those red blobs they used to have on the end of Dynastar skis...

[Felix]

Well if you get in tight trees traditional ST lock your turn to much, so not so good - this is however not related to the Swallotail but to their long nose. However short fishtails or Rockerboards I would still place second over longboards (190cm+) in the trees. You just have to adapt to say a 62cm stance which means you will need more power in your legs as you have to ride in a lower position.
The more surface the faster you can go, cause with a lot of surface taking out speed is much quicker - especially if it gets really steep.


The only real problem for me on boards >2m is that if you crash out of controll, the rotational force of the board becomes hard to controll and you are more likely to get seriously injured.

And second if you get into very steep terrain on hard snows where you can only get down with jumpturns that long boards start holding you back, because you have to jump further to swivel around the board and when you land often the contact points of the edge are too far away from your feet so you loose out on edgehold. In such terrain I wouldn't take rocker either however because you wan't maximum edge length for the length of the board. - so better something short around 165-170cm with long radius (12-14m) from the boardercross quiver.