Some toeside turn thoughts from ECS

[harald]

Vahur,
Very good observation. Many are so obsessed of touching the snow under any condition and therefore, does this mistake by bending in the waist and putting the hands on the snow. I do it myself often, however not so extreme, but for a different reason. In the frontside, it happens that the back get stretched too far, especially if the board chatters and that hurts in the lower back. Therefore, it is a sort of safety margin to bend a little in the waist. However, with more concentration and training good frontsides could be done without damaging the lower spine. But the advice is, as Vahur says, stay upright with the upper body and let the snow come to you when the speed and steepness permits it.
With respect to the styles, EC and the other (in previous discussions called Bomber-style) it depends on the material and other conditions. On narrow boards, the rotation seems unnecessary since the rider faces the direction of the speed. In order to start the turn the natural thing is to bend forward in the knees, put pressure on the tip and then the board does the rest.
On the wider boards where the position is more square to the board, it seems necessary to engage the tips by rotation over the front foot. Another effect of the pull-push-pull is that it allows an even pressure on the edges in order to keep contact with the snow during the turn. During the turn the track the boards follows goes from horisontal (flat) to vertical (in the fall line) in the middle of the turn to horisontal again. This means great changes in gravity forces and edge pressure. When the rider comes out of a turn and traverses, the gravity forces increase. One way to absorb the forces is to pull. Then in during the turn it is important to keep contact with the snow with an even pressure. That is done by extension of the legs push, and then absorbing the increasing pressure when coming out of the turn, pull. It is very similar to a slalom technique developed in France in the late sixties, called "avalement", swallow, which was especially effecienct when it was bumpy. The rider swallowed the moguls by bending on the crests and stretching in between. You could see the same technique used in some sections in a slalom course where the rider stretches around the poles.
Therefore, in my opionion it is not a question of nice or ugly, but what its most appropriate depending on the board and terrain. However, this is no excuse for bending in the waist as Vahur shows. That is bad technique anyhow.

[skywalker]

So Ecing is Tiefentlastung (edge change you have bend the knees and stretch them when you are in the turn), hochentlastung in the youtubevid (edge to edge streteched legs, in the turns bend legs), right?

Yes !

No

[fivat]

Bravo Harald for your excellent post. As always, it's very clever and you have understood everyting. You came to all the ECS (6 sessions), so we should take you in the instructors team (with Arnaud, Alex, Anthony and Sylvain).

One way to absorb the forces is to pull. Then in during the turn it is important to keep contact with the snow with an even pressure. That is done by extension of the legs push, and then absorbing the increasing pressure when coming out of the turn, pull. It is very similar to a slalom technique developed in France in the late sixties, called "avalement", swallow, which was especially efficient when it was bumpy. The rider swallowed the moguls by bending on the crests and stretching in between.

I like this term "avalement" that I'm using in French for many years. It says everything, if one doesn’t forget to stretch right after.

From 1990 to 1997, I rode a lot with Jacques in a small Swiss resort ("Ovronnaz") which had no wide slopes but many pistes with moguls (at that time the pistes preparation was not what it is now!). As a challenge to improve our skills, we pushed us to ride a lot in the moguls. They were sometimes very high and difficult to handle. "Avalement" was crucial. I'm sure now that such exercises helped us a lot to develop the push-pull technique on all terrains (moguls, flat slopes, etc. but also in deep snow when freeriding)... what has progressively led to extremecarving (as described and defined on this Web site: linked fully laid turns on frontside and backside, and not single Vitelli frontside turns made in counter-rotation). In 1998 we discovered the black slopes in Zinal, which were steep enough to perfect the boards, the settings, the shoes, etc.

For me it's important to not be a "passenger" on the board. Push at the proper moment and pull (make you light) at the proper moment give fluidity and smoothness. This is a general rule, which is working in all disciplines and other sports! You can see this on the best skiers for example: they look effortless and efficient on all terrains.

Patrice Fivat

[vkrouverk]

And I found the guy in the youtube link much more dynamic than the technique most snowboarders do here in Ecing, but thats just how I have looked into it)

Well, it could be more dynamic (but as you say, it's how one looks at it) but I don't think that one can compare videos from EC where riding is done on 30 deg. slopes against this slope, where rider has to straightline from time to time to gather speed.

But I see couple of issues with such riding technique:
* leaning forward could create nose overloading issues, as Alex described.
* Besides aesthetic style issue mentioned by Arnaud I see issue from biomechanical point of view: when one leans forward this means that one has to use back muscles and buttocks to support upper body. If upper body is kept upward ("natural" stance), then all the weight is held by skeleton (hips and backbone) and no muscle tension is needed. This means less fatigue and more riding
Same goes also for legs: if you can ride with extended legs then it means that your legs' muscles are resting and all the load is supported by skeleton. This is probably reason why I was asked several times during last ECS: how come that Pokkis can ride so much? If one looks at his riding pictures then it can be seen, that he applies same ideas very efficiently. I remember one discussion year or couple ago where Pokkis said something like that: one needs to "work" only during 25% (not sure about exact number, maybe Pokkis can correct me) of riding time, rest of riding is "free". Also modern racing technique uses natural aligned and centered posture idea for maximizing efficiency.
When it comes to riding videos then I like more video which was posted on bomberonline and shows "bomber" technique applied very well and efficiently:
http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/s ... hp?t=24294

I personally prefer swiss style (push-pull and prerotation). Jack Michaud says: rotation is wasted motion and he is right about it when pure efficiency is kept in mind. But I see couple of strong arguments for rotation:
* it is visually pleasing and dynamic, additionally it gives visual cue where I intend to turn to uphill riders, thus it is probably safer.
* it allows to avoid some bad mistakes: bending from waist and reaching for snow (as it's very hard to bend forward and rotate at the same time) and allows to avoid also counter-rotation.

[fivat]

Good post too, Vahur!

About the rotation, if the water surfers have to use this technique (as well as the skateboarders), it's clearly because there are some good reasons. They can't cheat since their feet are not bound to the board. They need to turn in harmony with the board, to lead the board, to place their weight properly, etc. and not to fall out of the board.
It's good to benefit from the efficiency and advantages of this technique on the snow too. It's not theory, it's our experience. Special thanks to the Swiss Snowboard School which has developed the rotation technique and spread it from the nineties already.

Patrice Fivat

[frunobulax]

I don't know if my following thoughts have been an issue before. If yes, please accept my apologies. The same goes for my poor abilities to explain technical theories in english.

I do think that the whole extension/flexion thing is overestimated concerning laydowns.

Traditionally we compare a carved turn with a perfect half-circle, and the forces that impact on the carver are gravitational (vertical) and centripetal forces (more or less horizontal). These forces remain more or less unchanged throughout the turn.
The inclination of the body should be a result of these forces.
Now if you look at a carver at a certain steady point within the turn, these forces cannot completely align with the horizontal plane. So normally laydowns should be impossible (for now leaving the inclination of the slope out of the picture). The COG has always to stay above the horizontal plane.

Now people extend and crouch their bodies in order to "trick" these actualities. The COG remains at the same height, zentripetal forces remain unchanged, but while stretching the legs the body rotates around a horizontal axis (aligned with the board), thus adding a few degrees to its inclination.
But at the end a complete laydown should still be impossible.


So why are we laying down?

In my opinion this is a result of the fact that carving
is NOT going round perfect half-circles. And the forces that impact on the carver are continously changing AND the carver can influence them at any point of the turn. How? Simply by steering the board.
Additionally, there are not only two axis' around which the body rotates (rotation, inclination). There is a THIRD axis - an axis, vertical to the slope, which runs through a certain point between the COG and the center of the carved "circle". In other words, the board is always going faster DOWN the hill than the upper body and the head.
I do think we use this third axis to make laid-out turns possible.

At the beginning of the turn, we steer the board to one direction, and the body is thrown to the other side. Then we reverse the steering input, and the body's movement stops. The we adjust the steering input gradually throughout the turn (if we need to; ideally no more input is needed) in order to keep the body balanced in the inclination we choose. In ANY inclination (limited only by the slope). We can incline more than the resulting vectors of the forces because in the next moment the board will be a bit lower down the hill - thus "catching" us and preventing us from hitting the slope.

Proof?
Ever tried to do laydowns on completely flat (horizontal) terrain? Is is not only that you lose speed. It is virtually impossible. You cannot stand up again (up to a certain inclination you can stand up by flexing you knees very far in order to bring your COG close to the board; but not after a complete laydown).

No need for bending and extending there. I would even assume that ECing should be possible completely WITHOUT any push-pull-tiefentlastung-cross-under-over-through-movements.
The steering and the inclination of the slope are the only tools we need. Ideally we only need to bend and extend the legs as far as necessary for steering the board and compensating moguls.



I know this is a bit of a hazardous theorem and maybe I have not explained it properly. But maybe some of you could think it over and help me. I'm still not completely understanding it myself.




edit:
i forgot something. the half-circle thing. we don't do half-circles. in order to keep the body balanced, our turns are very sharp at the beginning (where we need to catch the falling body, which is possibly already lower than the board), gradally opening to quite long turns at the end(where the body can easily be balanced alongside the slope). Then a quick closing of the turn is needed to initiate the next turn.
so we do.. hmm.. what is it.. geometry, always my weak point.. parabolic turns? with a kick at the end?

[Viviane]

Bravo Harald for your excellent post. As always, it's very clever and you have understood everyting. You came to all the ECS (6 sessions), so we should take you in the instructors team (with Arnaud, Alex, Anthony and Sylvain).

Patrice, you are right! Harald explaines so well! The day after our lesson from Arnaud, Harald was so kind to do some runs with me and teach and critisize where ever he could. I would give the world for spending a few more days with him as my tutor.

So he really deserves a

Thanks Harald!

[István]

Fruno, I think the push helps to bend the board and initiate the turn (you are right, not perfect half circles). The pull helps to unweight and change egde. In addition to this you could not do the next push without a prior pull. Right?

Your example of the flat surfuce is very valid. Actually you can do a fully laid turn with a very aggressive push even at low speeds and you can even get up with a sudden pull.


Cheers

[frunobulax]

Fruno, I think the push helps to bend the board and initiate the turn (you are right, not perfect half circles). The pull helps to unweight and change egde. In addition to this you could not do the next push without a prior pull. Right?

Your example of the flat surfuce is very valid. Actually you can do a fully laid turn with a very aggressive push even at low speeds and you can even get up with a sudden pull.

I'd guess unweighing the board is not the point - this would be useful for drifted turns. But I agree - the pull helps with a quick edge change. The COG comes closer to the ground so it can be shifted to the other side more quickly.
I don't say push-pull doesn't help with laid-out turns. But I doubt that it is absolutely necessary.
And in my opinion too many people try to do laid-out turns by using some form of stretching and flexing the body before they have mastered the basic techniques. They read "push-pull" and then they push and pull, regardless of what their board does.

flat surface: and now try it without pushing with your hands!

[István]

Flat surface: sure, on a flat surface gravity will not help you to keep the speed and stand up again. Sure you need your hands. My point was different. My point was that on a flat surface at low speeds you can really feel what a push and a pull does to you and the turn. That is all.

And I agree: on a perfectly groomed slope you can survive without the push pull. But push pull becomes very handy when you need to initiate the turn very quickly (narrower slopes) or the terrain is not perfect and you want to have a strong edge grip when entering the turn (the same you achieve with a small jump). And due to the push pull your knees will be bent almost all the way (with the exception of the apex of the turn) and that will help you absorbing the unevennesses and to keep the edge and avoid the chatter.

I think if you wanted to eliminate something from the EC style it could rather be the exaggerated rotation instead of the push pull. Without that you can survive. Without push and pull it becomes difficult..... (ECers please don't get me wrong, keep on doing the exaggerated rotation)

Only my $0.02


Cheers

[frunobulax]

aahh.. ok now I'm with you. Yes of course, push pull is good at low speeds and reduces the required space esp on narrow slopes. I fully agree.

My goal is not to eliminate push pull or to modify EC theory. I just wanted to point out that there are other technical issues which are often ignored due to the concentration on push-pull and rotation. And I do think this concentration often leads to bad technique. It's easy to lay down (esp on toesides) with push pull, and new carvers can easily master it which makes them think they've found the holy grail, but it's difficult to do dynamic and linked laid-out turns. For this you need to find the correct line and to steer the board correctly, starting with your feet, not with your knees or upper body.

I'd like to put the focus on these board steering and line issues.

[Schneewurm]

Riding a board needs some basic movements. The same kind of movement helps You to ride on a skateboard, or a snowboard, or similar type of boards. (+)
In general this movements are verry smooth and out of any powerfull and/or wild contort, so any stress of Your bones, material ... would be superfluous at all. The movements didn't start by e.g. steering with feets. They start in Your head, all the rest is following - from the upper to the lower parts of Your body!
Carving like flat is only a addaption of this movements, to do a longer, but tighter curve. And just using the same practice, like skateboarders do with their boards, standing with both feets on the board, to get some speed on flat area.

As fivat wrote, there is a good network of snowboard-school in Switzerland, the SSBS (*).
There You can learn the basic movements. No differences between hardboot-rider or softboot-rider, they use the same movements. But it's important to start on a "low level" to learn all the movements proper.
And Yes, the schools ar not free of charge and it takes a lot of time of learnig on slopes. If You watch out for a "cheap" enhancement of Your skill, You can spend hours in front of Your screen reading in forums and so on, the result would be like most time at the same level, like exact this nice "cheap" price.

(* for details check out the SSBS - RiderSystem)

(+ shure, I also ride skateboards, at time I've 4 boards)

[jfamin]

Damm !!!

Am I doing all that ? I thought I was just snowboarding...

Jean Paul

[Malecky]

I have the same problem, I arch my back and my legs are not extended, I can rarely extend my legs (push the board away).

I think this is fugly and I am happy I am not caught on camera that much.

Looks like I need to come to Zinal to get rid of this!

[jfamin]

When looking at Patrice picture (from carved), we clearly see how he bends his knees instead of breaking his waist.
In fact I tried at home on my swoard to bend my knees as he does : it was impossible because my boots were to stiff : in order to flex so much you knees boots must be soft with enough flex angle : look at his back boot !
So I tuned even more my head stratos to make them softer : it worked.
I can now bend my knees on my swoard exactly like on the picture.
Now I just have to try on the snow...
Jean Paul