Some toeside turn thoughts from ECS

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vkrouverk
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Some toeside turn thoughts from ECS

Post by vkrouverk » Saturday 7 February 2009, 21:01

By working with pictures from last ECS I remembered one discussion where it was said that in EC heelside turn is easier than toeside.
Sounds contradictionary? Not really, as from observations during ECS and later from the the images quite common mistake on toeside can be observed: people are reaching for snow. This means that they bend from the waist forward and only after the hands are put on snow the board will be put on edge. Result? Ugly style and inefficient carving. Here is one example (hopefully rider in image doesn't mind being counter-example, don't want to critisize anyone personally!)
Image
Compare this to good example, there rider maintains straight upper body and let's snow come to him instead of reaching for the snow:
Image

On the bomberonline site there is good article from Jack Michaud addressing same problem:
The Toeside Problem
Hope that this post will be of help for some to understand their technique problems and correct them so next year we can see even more good riders on slopes :!:
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Post by gdboytyler » Sunday 8 February 2009, 0:43

I've been complimented on my laid-out toeside carve, but from watching video, I knew I was also breaking at the waist. Watching "Carved" frame by frame really helped me with my "breaking at the waist" problem.

This frame capture from "Carved" really shows how much you need to bend the knees, so you DON'T break at the waist:

Image

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Hans
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follow the leader

Post by Hans » Sunday 8 February 2009, 1:44

here is also a very good example to follow the right movement:

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toeside / heelside turn

Post by Arnaud » Sunday 8 February 2009, 11:53

First of all, many thanks to Vahur to show a picture of me as the good example. It's a great honor :oops: even I'm sure I make also (often) the mistake described above :)

I agree that the first approach of toeside / frontside turn is easier because thanks to the rotation, the body is facing downhill, so you have a good vision of the slope. The common defect you described is not so difficult to correct, with good tips. This requires a good leg flexion before the turn, and a good timing for the edge change. "soft" boots helps also a lot !

But I don't totally agree with BOL article. Heelside / backside turn is much more difficult (at least using the EC technique), because due to the "egyptian" position at the end of frontside turn, the body is facing uphill, so you have to start the turn blindly. The difficulty is to find the good timing for edge change / rotation / touching the snow without seeing downhill.

Then it's true that the edge grip is generally better on heelside because there is strong pressure on the edge. Chattering problem occurs more often during frontside turn, especially if the turn is not perfect.

Hans : Unfortunatly the link show a guy making fast carving, but absolutely not using ExtremeCarving technique ! The guy is sitting during the turns by bending the legs ! It's the opposite of the push pull technique in which legs must be fully extended during the turn. So it's not the "right movement"
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Post by raphael » Sunday 8 February 2009, 12:02

vkrouverk >

I made myself the same remark this year at ECS:
Doing a frontside ec-turn is pretty easy when you know the trick, but doing it with style is another story.

Monday I saw Patrice do is first frontside up the Bartelemy and was struck: it was beautiful. Filming and editing EC for a few years I was used to see efficient frontside turns (and even photogenic at their middle) but always with an ugly preparation. His preparation was just effortless and beautiful. I had no idea this was possible. Yet, looking at the videos I have of him, this must have been one of his best.

The key may be in speed, hips rotation, very low knees bending, butt alignment with the board, very progressive pushing, good snow, body training, experience or all that together. Still it was obvious that he was miles ahead of our level.

Now looking again at this year's photos from Vahur and Carved movie from last year ... Patrice indeed has a stylish frontside.
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Re: toeside / heelside turn

Post by Hans » Sunday 8 February 2009, 17:43

Arnaud wrote:Hans : Unfortunatly the link show a guy making fast carving, but absolutely not using ExtremeCarving technique ! The guy is sitting during the turns by bending the legs ! It's the opposite of the push pull technique in which legs must be fully extended during the turn. So it's not the "right movement"
Arnaud, thanks for clarifying this video here. After years of riding I concluded that I am not a believer of the EC-style and especially the pushpull technique. I don't like the movement of fully extended legs in the turns.

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Re: toeside / heelside turn

Post by vkrouverk » Monday 9 February 2009, 22:03

Hans wrote:After years of riding I concluded that I am not a believer of the EC-style and especially the pushpull technique. I don't like the movement of fully extended legs in the turns.
What's not to like in push-pull? It's very efficient (you don't move your COG very much during transition) and fast. And one doesn't extend legs fully: if you look closely J & P videos then you can see that they don't straighten their legs during EC. Maybe one can even ride EC turn with fully extended legs, but when using push-pull in non-EC turns, then bent legs are must anyway at all times?
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extended

Post by Hans » Monday 9 February 2009, 22:19

Arnaud says that Ecing is only done properly with fully extended legs. I don't like that movement because it don't suits me. Sometimes I make some turns with my hips and hands in the snow with slightly bend legs. But not with fully extended legs. So what is the proper EC/Swoard technique than? (by the way, I don't give a shit anyway, as long as I can lay down my turns with bend knees :lol: ) And I found the guy in the youtube link much more dynamic than the technique most snowboarders do here in Ecing, but thats just how I have looked into it)

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Re: extended

Post by Whitey » Monday 9 February 2009, 22:36

Hans wrote: And I found the guy in the youtube link much more dynamic than the technique most snowboarders do here in Ecing, but thats just how I have looked into it
Hans, the link would be cool. Thanks!

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Re: follow the leader

Post by mkravo » Monday 9 February 2009, 23:37

Hans wrote:here is also a very good example to follow the right movement:
I think that he is talking about this link above ...

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Post by Arnaud » Monday 9 February 2009, 23:48

vahur wrote:but when using push-pull in non-EC turns, then bent legs are must anyway at all times
You're right ! The term "fully extended" is a little bit exaggerated :)
I just wanted to say that the "push-pull" technique means you have to pull the board before the turn, then push during the turn. The maximum leg extension is reached during the 2nd and 3rd quarter of the turn.
The guy riding on Hans link is doing the opposite. Personnally, I don't like this kind of sat turn (for aesthetic reason)
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Post by Alex » Tuesday 10 February 2009, 0:00

Arnaud wrote:
vahur wrote:but when using push-pull in non-EC turns, then bent legs are must anyway at all times
You're right ! The term "fully extended" is a little bit exaggerated :)
I just wanted to say that the "push-pull" technique means you have to pull the board before the turn, then push during the turn. The maximum leg extension is reached during the 2nd and 3rd quarter of the turn.
The guy riding on Hans link is doing the opposite. Personnally, I don't like this kind of sat turn (for aesthetic reason)
another problem with the style of the video is that the carver lay down too much in the second half of the turn when the board is ahead, and cause the pressure of the gravity, it's easier skidding and chattering on steep and hard slopes...ec allow to handle this condition because the carver lay down (fully) when the board is behind...so not only aesthetic reason :wink:
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@Alex

Post by Hans » Tuesday 10 February 2009, 0:36

What you are saying is that pushpull/Ecing technique is less suitable to lay down long curves at high speeds like in the vid? So Ecing is Tiefentlastung (edge change you have bend the knees and stretch them when you are in the turn), hochentlastung in the youtubevid (edge to edge streteched legs, in the turns bend legs), right?

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Re: follow the leader

Post by Whitey » Tuesday 10 February 2009, 6:41

mkravo wrote:
Hans wrote:here is also a very good example to follow the right movement:
I think that he is talking about this link above ...
Right, thanks! Skinny board, not very nice style. Not for me, thanks anyway!

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Post by Arnaud » Tuesday 10 February 2009, 9:07

hans wrote:So Ecing is Tiefentlastung (edge change you have bend the knees and stretch them when you are in the turn), hochentlastung in the youtubevid (edge to edge streteched legs, in the turns bend legs), right?
Yes !
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