What an Offpiste Swallowtail Beauty - Wildschnee 184cm

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What an Offpiste Swallowtail Beauty - Wildschnee 184cm

Post by Felix » Thursday 8 January 2009, 16:30

Yehaa, I got a new toy.
Being fed up with using my snowshoes in deep pow (using snowshoes in deep pow is like saying my 160cm twintip (snowshoes) is better than your 155cm slalom race ski (shoes only) I decided to get a splitboard in the long run.

And then I noticed that "Burton" a.k.a. Markus announced a really nice swallowtail splitboard - so I couldn't resist to buy it. I'll try it out on saturday (was just sick for 4 days, so I prefer not to go out tomorrow but wait til Saturday).

Specs (measured roughly):
Length: 184cm (the outer 2 pieces are 170cm, the middle part is 152).
Dimensions: 310;255;295
Nose length to contact point: 40cm
Nose length to widest point: 46cm
Noseheigt above ground at highest point: 64mm (edited, before incorrectly 58mm written)
Radius: 8.8m radial
Tailkick: none - the widest point is actually right at the end.
Core (mm): 1,8 - 6,7 - 7,7 - 4 Ash/Spruce; ABS Sidewalls, top and bottomlayer - triaxial glas with carbon layer at 0°, biaxial at 0° and 90°

From the shape its a melange between the French Swallow style (think Swell Panik) and the American (Voilé, Nitro) with the short radius, but on the other hand real swallowtail vs pintail and a very long and flat nose (yeah that nose will not sink in deep, it should allways stay on top). The flex is pretty hard in the center and tail, with the nose being really soft on the front part. I'm really interested in how it behaves.

I hope 184cm doesn't feel too short. I'm used to my 2m tanker in pow, and did really like the Radical Surf 222 when I tried it out. However 170cm "skis" are already on the long side for ascents, so it's pretty difficult to make a Swallowtail split much longer without loosing on uphill capacity.

On piste or on hard conditions I am not too sure how it will behave, that splittail construction (Voilé) will not make any board better, so for carving I will use other boards.... Also I don't wan't to stress the parts by using it for lift-assisted freeriding, it shall be my touring board only. For the beginning I'll use it with softboots.

Besides my tanker (my sister has a Nitro Pow Pow 196 which I use frequently too on big days, I drilled additional inserts at 4cm (that's where the binding are fixed right now) and 8cm to the back for the tanker so that on pow days it's fun too, otherwise compared to swallowtails the tanker like to dive instead of float - due to the short and steep nose, that's the prob with all boards with round nose however the tanker ain't that bad.):
[url=http://images_not_allowed_hack.us][img]http://img129.images_not_allowed_hack.us/img129/2622/snv8029950gc0.jpg[/img][/url]
[url=http://g.images_not_allowed_hack.us/img129/snv8029950gc0.jpg/1/][img]http://img129.images_not_allowed_hack.us/img129/snv8029950gc0.jpg/1/w570.png[/img][/url]

The tail:
[url=http://images_not_allowed_hack.us][img]http://img129.images_not_allowed_hack.us/img129/4297/snv8030425ly5.jpg[/img][/url]
[url=http://g.images_not_allowed_hack.us/img129/snv8030425ly5.jpg/1/][img]http://img129.images_not_allowed_hack.us/img129/snv8030425ly5.jpg/1/w612.png[/img][/url]

Full Profile:
[url=http://images_not_allowed_hack.us][img]http://img113.images_not_allowed_hack.us/img113/6236/snv8030525ef2.jpg[/img][/url]

Nose Profile only:
[url=http://images_not_allowed_hack.us][img]http://img392.images_not_allowed_hack.us/img392/2148/snv8030625ki7.jpg[/img][/url]
[url=http://g.images_not_allowed_hack.us/img392/snv8030625ki7.jpg/1/][img]http://img392.images_not_allowed_hack.us/img392/snv8030625ki7.jpg/1/w816.png[/img][/url]

And thats where I will give it a go on Saturday (image was taken 10 days ago) - Raxalpe, the face is too steep for most of the ski tourers that frequent this mountain like sheep NZ, so it's allways a nice run with about 650m vert top to to bottom of the face (to the parking it's another 300m):
[url=http://images_not_allowed_hack.us][img]http://img255.images_not_allowed_hack.us/img255/3509/snv8029425xn6.jpg[/img][/url]
[url=http://g.images_not_allowed_hack.us/img255/snv8029425xn6.jpg/1/][img]http://img255.images_not_allowed_hack.us/img255/snv8029425xn6.jpg/1/w816.png[/img][/url]
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Post by Schneewurm » Saturday 10 January 2009, 20:59

Wildschnee for a wild downhill!

So You are changing from a 11 m progressive radius to 8.8 m radial radius!

Lucky Felix starts walking! (Lassen Sie den Pulk unter sich!) :evil2:
(at our mountains it is now better to use crampon's for hiking up!)
I saw the board also for sale, at a nice price, but I had no demand of one more.

I'm waiting for Your report.
- How is it to climb up (wider part of board-skis on tail)
- Position of climbing, isn't it to much set back?
- can you choose feet-angulation, or is this fixed (0°/25°)?
- hard flex - I think would be o.K. for the "ski's", the wouldn't break.

Ride downhill:
- depending on snow-conditions, high of the nose is o.K.? (Pogo's are on 10-11 cm)
- hard flex at tail, soft on tip - in deed it's not a Nitro! It needs an other riding style.

- try it out with softest hardboots - 3 buckles/1 strap, if You can go to 30°/45°. They are cheap to buy secondhand (shell, liner should be better a new one!). For hiking up, without climbings on rocks, they should be o.K. Use Thermoflex liner, it's like a ski-touring-boot, has a much shorter sole, but You need 2 pair of socks (they will be earlier full of sweat, then a standard liner). Some experience with hardboots/snowshoes (+2000 m of highness, to a mountain only 180 m lower, then highest mountain in Austria), see here:
viewtopic.php?t=4526&start=36

Mounting bindings is quit easy: F2-Proflex toe- and heel- parts (Intec (heavier) or standart bindings with front-trigger) are on 40 mm between screws, so there is no needness of any snowpro "voilé-slider" bindings.


Wich is the weight? (verry interesting)
- Weight board with sliders (ready to surf, but without bindings)?
- Weight of one "ski", with slider (ready to climb, but without binings)?
Gliding on Snowboards,
like Pogo, Kessler, Virus, Hot, Nidecker and others,
from 151 up to 183 cm and 14 to 27.4 cm width,
covering any kind of shapes with
any kind of boots and bindings.

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Post by Felix » Saturday 10 January 2009, 21:59

Weight of board (excluding slider and pin) is 5100g. This includes the custom pucks, the aluminium bar, ....

I think that's quite good for a 3 piece (which needs to be a bit stronger built than normal snowboard for climbing up - splits will allways be a bit heavier than a non split version) in 184cm. I do think Powderequipment Type B in 180 is maybe 400g lighter but that's only a guess cause I don't know what the T3 connectors weight! The aluminium bar and the extended pucks are plenty stiff compared to standard voilé/burton/ interfaces!

The weight of the middle part including the aluminum bar is 1580g, each "ski therefore 1660g. If I use the Voilé slider and the super light parts of some Elfgen Race plate it adds 278g per foot. If I use F2 pieces it adds 460g per foot! If on the other hand I use my drake F50 size large (size medium could be tuned to probabely 14.4cm) softbinders it adds 1070g per foot! (I filed down some material - however with 15.4cm width they are quite wide for the ski which is about 110-90-115. - I have to find some thinner binders --> goal is 14cm width. My Burton DriverX (which will be exchanged against 32 forecasts soon) weight 1144g including the lighter than standard Raichle thermoflex liner in size 26.5. The other option for the moment are Raichle 325 which are no good off course for touring. This adds up to 3884g per foot everything included with the Burtons, or 4172g everything included with the Raichles. If I change to Dynafit TLT X boots I think I can get the weight down to about 3600g per foot!

BTW my tanker has 12.5m radius I think which is my main off-piste board.

Edit forgot:
Your bindings are fixed at 25/0 though I think 30/-5 would be possible too, then you have slightly turned out toes for walking up, going 20/5 would be awkward for walking up, at least for my feet. If you wan't other angles, you need to ask Markus to produce 3 more pucks per changed angle (the pucks are btw much much better than original voile cause they are longer)
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Post by Felix » Sunday 11 January 2009, 19:50

O.k. so after my first day my report:

I arrived quite late today at 09:30 at the Salamandersesselbahn Losenheim, where for about 90 minutes I rode the slopes. She turns really easy and fast, quite a change to most of my boards. Rather feels like 155-160cm length.
It's rather a board to enjoy, than a board to push on the 90% artificial snow. Drifting is really effortless and also carving works out quite well. I could carve quite low, but then it felt a bit strange so I didn't try any laydowns.

The long nose is not that stable on high speeds onpiste - but you can ride the board quite fast nevertheless, not as fast as a 2m tanker though which in comparison really feels like a tank. Fast but really beaten to death without emotions.

Then I decided to go for a small hike of about 900m up to the Fischerhuette, along the suedlicher Grafensteig, joining the crowd of skitourers that went up there. Sometimes it felt like there were more people coming down than on a crowded skipiste.

The 3-piece design really works well. No need for wide "stance" while walking up. The "skis" have just the right flex. When the way sloped sideways I had some problems though, but it was acceptable. Strangely the side with edge provided less hold than the side with edge - I don't really understand why.

I did have huge problems on the steep parts though. The skins simply didn't hold and often I slid back. I don't know wheter the voile tractor skins are simply bad quality (they do look pretty new), but where moste people effortlessy walked up, I had to start traversing. The steep 500m climb up (around 20°) to the Fischerhuette I therefore decided to carry the board and walk up by foot - wasn't much slower anyhow.

Originally I wanted to go down the Breite Ries, dropping in directly from Kaiserstein (around 60°) - but lack of snow and blank ice told me to not risk my life down here. Anyhow I was the only of the huge mass today (at least 200-300 people had all walked up the same way as I did today) to go down the eastern side of the mountain (Lahningries with avg 38°, entry is quite a bit steeper). 40° on pure ice was more fear than fun though. No mistakes allowed. Here the short radius came in really handy, and gave at least a bit of security.


Conclusion: I need better skins, as well as ski crampons. Otherwise on days like today with no new snow for 3 weeks and cold temperatures, not much fun on steep parts. The board itself performed really nice. Now I'ld only need to test it in powder - the snow condition a Swallowtail excells. Markus has really shaped a nice toy here.
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Post by ICERIPPER » Monday 12 January 2009, 13:19

Hello

I've an old Nitro Tour Split board
For your skins be sure the Ptex is really dry because if there is some water, the glue isn't ok ( I have reglue mine skins, surprise than your new doesn't works)

I'am modifing my board with Voilé kit the be able to change angle & stance ( I've some steel insert to put with epoxy)

For binding go to light boots (Try to find second hands Dynafit ski touring "Tourlite " ) with the Voilé plate you can change if you want soft binding. If you make alpin downhill travel the Vibram sole are really safer than the rubber of soofboots and you can put alu crampons easily (not steel )

If your split was 2 parts you must have crampons but you have 3 parts so it is more a ski for climbing, may be better to buy only alu crampons for your boots in case of icy conditions.
Another point you must find crampons that are thin to used the Volié binding on your ski (don't know if it is possible to find) be carefull crampons is not just alu sheet with angle 90° , it is really safer spares .

In Zinal there is really good place for snow touring ( area beetwin Zinal & Zermatt ) be there one time on may , 3500/3600 m ( need to find excatly name if you want , don't remenber )

Did you have ARVA, probe, shovel because it is your next purchase ……….

www.splitboard.com

Did you come in the French Alpes

Ps: Surprise by your angle 0° on back , 45/30 on my split ,on my swallow depending of binding Rigid 45/38 , Emery alu step–in 35/15 , never soft bots sorry .

Cheers
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Post by Felix » Monday 12 January 2009, 13:32

The skins glued perfectly allright, they glided backwards pretty badly once it got steeper.
I think for my next skins I go mohair mix or 100% mohair, that will climb much better.

On 3-piece it's not easy to change angle. You would have to make new pucks for the slider. With 255mm middle width, 25/0 is quite a good stance. 255mm is pretty much perfect for Mondo 26.5 or 27.5 boots, you can stand perfectly centered, and have perfect position for uphill on the slider.

I'm already scanning ebay for tourlites in my region, want to try them on before buying preferably.

I have steel crampons for my boots, why would you go alu?

I will look out for ski crampons for my board though I think.
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Post by ICERIPPER » Friday 20 February 2009, 19:37

Felix

When it is steeper I used the crampons on my split, another point if it is steeper you must put your body weight really on the ski binding to be sure you have the contact with the skins (not in the front, not the back but really middle)
Can't tell you what is my skins nylon or mohair or mix (yes i have read that mohair is better)

Alu crampons just for weight (but only powder snow ) steel better if stone.

Have you watch on ski touring forum info because we have one very good but in french, may be easer to find one in switzerland in deutch.

You live where there is the best mountain's refuge (Austria).

This year i used snowshoes with my swallow Undertaker on the back pack
really a weapon in powder (really good lenght for me this board 198 cm)
On the french ski touring forum a 20 year old skitouring women used the best swallow (Swell panick) but she made only touring last year 90 000 m of climbing on her legs - really respect to her - it is why this year i used 1st time my swallow on ski touring (never had the idea to put a board of 2 meter on my backpack)
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Post by Felix » Friday 20 February 2009, 20:45

What's the URL of the French forum (je parle francais donc pas de soucis pour la langue)?

I haven't done many tours yet (only 4 on the board) because I was a bit sick when conditions where great for touring, but now conditions are better for lift assisted freeriding (too dangerous for nice tours).

I changed to 100% Mohair skins and it's much better now. I still need crampoons though - a friend promised to make some for me but I'll only get them in beginning of March.

East of Austria is quite good, because we have many mountains without skifields here and most skitourers don't tackle the steeps around here (many run uphill on slopes everyday, but freak out once it's steeper than 45°).
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Post by ICERIPPER » Friday 20 February 2009, 22:31

Ok

1)good shop with good price
www.sport-conrad.com/index.asp?disp=kategorie&kat_id=32

2)www.skitour.fr/topos/dernieres-sorties.php
The french forum of skitouring
The onwer of a band of Swell panick nickname on the forum is zigual
she made about 1200/2000 m when she goes on snow.
I have the same nickname iceripper ( i am not in the same way ) today 700/900 max, i used ski lift (val thorens and just climbing for new offpist/touring & a poor 181 m but the best curves where made by a swallow)

This forum is really interesting for the snow conditions and to give you idea where to go , it is the first year that i made touring around Grenoble
Chartreuse mountain , to much good snow this year.
I try to put photos there to indicate the way have made.

3)www.skitour.fr/forum/read_93175.html
Watch this for the crampons because you need special for your Voilé binding.
If you want some photos of Voilé crampons i could send you some but for split.

4)I know there is also a good skitouring forum or site in switzerland but can't re-find the URL (also interesting for snow conditions)
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Post by Schneewurm » Saturday 21 February 2009, 8:43

Gliding on Snowboards,
like Pogo, Kessler, Virus, Hot, Nidecker and others,
from 151 up to 183 cm and 14 to 27.4 cm width,
covering any kind of shapes with
any kind of boots and bindings.

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Post by Felix » Sunday 22 February 2009, 20:43

Thanks.
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Post by ICERIPPER » Thursday 16 April 2009, 18:20

Hello

good topic on a blog

http://www.skitour.fr/blog/crepyvindefo ... spiltboard

Ps: I found several years ago 10 photos (a board in 3 parts made by Jester) but with copyright so i can't put them agin on the site.

Cheers
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Post by Felix » Thursday 16 April 2009, 21:51

Jester or now Powderequipment Type B 3-piece splitboards is the shits. It's really my favourite allround shape. Simply can't affort it.

The T3 system is supposedly not so stiff - best 3/4piece splits IMHO are from Markus aka User:Burton of erstespur.de - it's a bit more heavy but therefore plenty stiff.
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Post by ICERIPPER » Friday 17 April 2009, 17:58

Felix be cool .......

http://dhost.info/franz/snowboard/project_split_3.html

I have read somewhere about new developpment on board nidecker with engineer school of lausane if i remenber well that we musn't put some aditional weight on tail & nose (so the alu stick for joined on the jester not may be good idea, better fiber/plastic) vibration or anything like this was produce but this addtional weight.

My german is not so good to read all this web site, may be better for you !
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Post by Felix » Friday 17 April 2009, 18:07

@ Iceripper if you watch closely - that topic linked in your post - goes to someone who switched to a 3piece by Markus or "Dr. Burton" - the exact same person that built/shaped/designed my Swallowtail.

Markus uses on his boards (longer) carbon sliders for additional weight savings and stiffness instead of voilé alu sliders.
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