sensation of gravity/pressure when fully laid out?

[kjl]

Hey, I want to learn the EC push-pull turn this year, especially after watching "Stoked." You guys get smoother and cleaner every year.

I am the kind of rider that improves a lot by thinking a lot, imagining my body and the forces upon it, and translating that into physical action later, so I am trying to get an understanding for what the push-pull turn feels like.

My question is:

What do you feel when the board is pointed straight down the fall line, and you are fully laid out, EC style, as compared to a "normal", highly angulated and compressed bomberonline-style turn?

At first I thought it would be impossible to hold a high G turn with very little angulation in your body which it looks like you guys do, but then I began to suspect that by pushing hard at the start of the turn and pulling later you are actually lowering the pressure during the middle of the carve, and perhaps deferring that till later on when you are more horizontal to the fall line. Is this correct? Do you feel less weight when fully inclinated and then a lot more weight towards the very end of the turn?


Thanks.

[nils]

Ken: you've pointed out one of the main reason why those turns are possible (after doing a proper rotation move of course): All the turns begin while the board is still horizontal and NOT oriented to the fall line: In most case even, the board is taken uphill slightly, which helps taking it away from the body that has then to extend, PUSH on the board as to make it go away and from then the G forces take over and the edge takes care of everything: the pressure felt is actually not huge because it is distributed along 180° almost arc. We basically feel the board is driving along the edge rather that driven by the Gforce

When you see 'bomberlike' turns, you'll notice people use bigger boards and go faster> this and the technique used makes most of the G-force concentrated in the last part of the turn, where it is hard to resist pressure: would you then try to extend leg would the edge slip anyway for it is already under G pressure (well i noticed that when i was riding my proton doing same kind of turns).

You're right a lot of observation (movies help) makes you travel half way to succeeding , even if its mentally! You're ready for frontsides laidturns the backside is a bit more difficult to imagine and succeed (in real too) i still have difficulties pushing firmly on the backside..

Nils

[kjl]

So I think maybe I had it wrong before, but now I have it. Tell me if this is right:

A carved turn has 2 halves, split by the point when the board is pointing down the fall line.

In bomber carves you have a compressed body all throughout, and you have very little pressure on the edge during the first half of the turn and then massive pressure that builds up quickly during the second half of the turn.

In EC turns, you push during the first half of the turn, which gives you some pressure on the edge, and then pull back in during the second half, which lessens the pressure.

So a bomber carver might feel .5 G's in the first half and 2.5 G's in the second half, whereas an EC carver might feel (ideally) 1.5G's all the way through.

Is that right?


I have another question, in this case. If you push to increase pressure during the first half of the turn (when your body is further downhill than your board), are you in fact accelerating yourself even faster downhill, and does that mean you have even more pressure to absorb later on in the second half of the turn? Or do you try to push more during the middle of the carve, so that you are accelerating yourself left or right (perpendicular to the fall line)?

Sorry for the in-depth questions, if they are confusing. Also, I think at this level I just need to get out there and do it. But there's no snow yet.

[NateW]

I just wanted to say that I love threads like this one.

[harald]

Hi,
Maybe I should not mix carving ski technique into a snowboard forum but as both a carving snowboarder and skier at a competitive master (old boy) level I see a lot of similarities between modern ski racing and extreme carving technique. In order to benefit fully of the carving properties of a modern racing ski and achieve clean carving turns through the gates, the secret is to change the edges when the skis still are horizontal (in the traverse) before going into the next turn. Then maximum pressure is put on the edges and the ski is banked almost vertical when the tips are pointing downwards in the fall line. In that case the ski arcs and turns into the new directions and the pressure can be relieved out of the turn with pulling the legs under the body. The common fault is to change edges too late and edge too little, put pressure after the skis leave the fall line and receiving a lot of G-forces out of the turn in order to keep the direction and avoid skidding.
The same works for me when carving and training EC on the snowboard. Change the edge aggressively in the traverse/horizontal phase just before going into the turn. Put the board vertical just before or when crossing the fall line and then the arc of the board will take care of the rest and you absorb the forces by pulling the legs. In that case the forces (pressure) feel light in the traverses and you are prepared to go into the next turn at once. The same also applies in ordinary carving turns on the board.
So the trick is to change edge early, extend the legs and lying the body flat in the beginning of the turn and then let the board do the rest of the job and raise the body when going out of the turn. This is well illustrated in the movies. However, it takes a little courage, speed, and practice. Good luck. I have myself a lot of training to do before linking the turns as Jacques and Patrice.

[fivat]

Excellent reply, Harald! You have all understood!

So the trick is to change edge early, extend the legs and lying the body flat in the beginning of the turn and then let the board do the rest of the job and raise the body when going out of the turn. This is well illustrated in the movies. However, it takes a little courage, speed, and practice.

Exactly I'm happy that you understand "the secret" we explain in this Web site. The common mistake is to try to lay the body too late.
In 1991, I understood this crucial point when I read a small article written by Jean Nerva explaining how he did the famous Vitelli turn (one laid turn on the toe side).
Now with the proper technique and the proper gear developped recently (much better than 10 years ago) we can link these turns on both sides... But at start, one has to do mental efforts: think the turns differently. Lay the body early! Don't forget to close your turns as much as possible (don't do "babana" turns like at racing)

Patrice Fivat

[audacium]

Hey Patrice, I understand the first part, but what do you mean by
> Don't forget to close your turns as much as possible (don't do "babana"
> turns like at racing)
What do you mean by "closing a turn", and what are "banana turns" ?

I do not want to make anyone envy me, but tomorrow I shall be on the slopes with fantastic weather and fresh snow
(so I read every technical input I can get)

Blue Skies, Eduard!

[fivat]

What do you mean by "closing a turn", and what are "banana turns" ?

"Closed" turn:       C
"Banana" turn:      (       :-)

Patrice Fivat

[fivat]

Is that right?

Yes, nice description kjl

I have another question, in this case. If you push to increase pressure during the first half of the turn (when your body is further downhill than your board), are you in fact accelerating yourself even faster downhill, and does that mean you have even more pressure to absorb later on in the second half of the turn? Or do you try to push more during the middle of the carve, so that you are accelerating yourself left or right (perpendicular to the fall line)?

We don't accelerate ourselves during the first half of the turn. Or I don't have this feeling... Anyway it's crazy to get the body almost downhill.
I would say that we don't really push to get edge pressure (of course we get some), but we push the board away from the body (while the body is progressively inclined). Do you get the idea? I hope I have found the right words in my poor English

Patrice Fivat

[audacium]

Ah, things become clearer now. True, in racing turns are not really "turns" but only edge change

Thank you!

Eduard.

[jason_watkins]

I love threads like this. I too learn by conceptualizing and visualizing.

My most successful carving (I'm using softboots) has been using something imbetween "bomber" and "extremecarving" styles. While standing relaxed in a traverse, I quickly drop my body by bending my kness and roll onto the downhill edge. Then I progressively extend through the turn.

Toward the end of the season, I felt as tho my carving was getting worse, not better. Reading this thread and thinking about it now, I believe my problem was switching edges harshly. When I'd drop to unweight, I'd really throw myself sharply onto the edge. I think that worked great in the colder snow. But as the season extended into spring, I think it was too much for the slush.

This season one thing I plan to work on is a more smooth push-pull style instead of the drop and extend all the way through. With push-pull, how can I soften switching onto the edge, so that I don't overpower the soft snow here in fall/spring? The bomber/race style lets you build edge pressure gradually through the entire first half of the turn, whereas push pull seems to require a more violent edge switch. Is there a way to build the edge pressure more gradually?

[kjl]

Thanks so much for the replies, Harald, Patrice. Yes, I think I get the idea now. The only thing left now is to actually get out and do it!

Unfortunately, no snow as of yet.

I'm jealous, Eduard. Where is there snow? I need to snowboard so badly my heartrate increases noticeably (I can feel it speed up, I can feel it beating against my chest, and I can feel waves of warmth enter my fingers) just from watching Stoked and mentally imagining the forces and actions of extremecarving.

I guess we have 4-6 more weeks before snow here in California, US.

[Mphdemon]

I have just registered but I have been looking at these forums for a while. One of you (I think it was Jason)(sorry I don't know how to do this very well I'm not very technological) had said that you would loose your edge when you would either drop into a turn or coming out of one. I am not by any means anywhere near to the level that Patrice or Jacques, and I have not gotten the chance to test out their technique but at the level I am now, I have taught myself to keep the same pressure on my edge at all times. When I first started making some good carves my board threw me around alot becuase the pressure that went through the edge to my legs would change so drastically. I found that if you just let you're knees take all of the pressure then you will come to realize how much pressure you have to apply to the board to keep the feeling the same the whole way through. Now I may be completely wrong in this aspect because I'm still not sure that I understand Patrice's and Jacues's technique completely so maybe with their technique you shouldn't have the same pressure throughout the whole turn, but this has been my experiance. I hope it helps in some way.

[rilliet]

Hi Ken,

I have another question, in this case. If you push to increase pressure during the first half of the turn (when your body is further downhill than your board), are you in fact accelerating yourself even faster downhill, and does that mean you have even more pressure to absorb later on in the second half of the turn? Or do you try to push more during the middle of the carve, so that you are accelerating yourself left or right (perpendicular to the fall line)?

No, the goal is not to accelerate but to place the board carving on its edge.
In fact there is several benefits:
- As you are low on your knies before pushing, your body starts to lay down from a lower position, that makes it easier.
- Pushing the board means that the rider can decide how he is placing it. He can push hardly of smoothly, in a way to precisely adjust his turn. This makes the rider the master of his board and not the slave!
- Having the legs extended in the middle of the turn allows the rider to pull in the second half of the turn. How would it be possible if the rider had his knies already bent?

Then "pulling" is a part the rider is quite free to decide:
The less grip he has (ice or/and bad board) the strongest the"pulling" should be done. But if the edge grip is good the rider can wait a little bit in order to make a longer laid out turn and then pull at the last moment, just before swithing the edges.

Hope I said it in an understandable way...

Jacques

[chillaxin]

Hi Jacques,

Just a quick question: if your legs are extended during the turn, how are you able to absorb bumps in the slope? I assume that during the turn when your legs are extended, the flexibility to absorb bumps is minimal. I have checked out the movies on this side and when i watch your legs during the turns, i can't see much flexibility.

Thanks in advance for your reply.

Chillaxin