Canting vrs Heel & Toe Lift

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Canting vrs Heel & Toe Lift

Post by rcrobar » Wednesday 27 March 2002, 21:50

In the “Settings” section of this web page the following is written.

Avoid any canting pad (set your bindings flat on the board), because it harms significantly the correct body movement and edge control. The pad under the heel pushes the chest in counter-rotation position (facing the nose) and reduces the front side edge grip under the rear foot (the nose will bite the snow, which causes a beautiful front side flip!). The lateral canting pads put the knees together and reduce the backside edge grip under the rear foot (the tail will sideslip) and also reduce the movement ability.

My Question is:

Does Heel & Toe Lift, WITHOUT ANY CANTING, have a negative affect on the body position when “Extreme Carving”?

If the SAME AMOUNT OF LIFT (NO CANTING)is used for the Front Foot (toe) and the Rear Foot (heel), doesn’t the carving body position remain the same?

Thanks
Rob

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Post by rilliet » Thursday 28 March 2002, 10:12

YES, it will affect the position.
The explanation we give are independant for both of the problems.

If you do as you say, your front knee goes backward and your backknee goes forward. Consequently, the hips and the upper boby turns to face the nose like on the photos with the red cross in "Technique"-"Turns"-"Basic position".

I personally think that the main cause of this incorrect position (facing the nose) of many carvers is precisely the toe&heel lift pads.

Of course, when you run the first time flat on the bindings you will probably feel a bit uncomfortable. But believe me, it works much better. :D

Carve low

Jacques

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Re: Canting vrs Heel & Toe Lift

Post by Maciek » Thursday 28 March 2002, 17:00

rcrobar wrote:In the “Settings” section of this web page the following is written.

Avoid any canting pad (set your bindings flat on the board), because it harms significantly the correct body movement and edge control. The pad under the heel pushes the chest in counter-rotation position (facing the nose) and reduces the front side edge grip under the rear foot (the nose will bite the snow, which causes a beautiful front side flip!). The lateral canting pads put the knees together and reduce the backside edge grip under the rear foot (the tail will sideslip) and also reduce the movement ability.
That's not actually true. This could be true only when you select discs incorrectly and set your stance not correctly. However you have to understand that cant discs are supposed to compensate for your legs shape. If you are more interested in subject I could give you a link where the idea is discussed in more detail and what type of cant you should use with different shape of your lower leg.

Also cant discs usually work as almost only heel or toe lift at higher angles witch you could easily calculate using trigonometry. 3 degree cant disc at 60 degree foot angle gives you about 0.5 degree cant and the rest goes into toe or heel lift.


I used different discs and none of them limited my ability of movement assuming that I had to add other adjustments. For example if you're using two discs - on front and back - then it could help you to extend stance and therefore achieve better control over tip and tail and edge (on longer boards) while without using those disks you just might have counter rotation problem. You see the point? That is without discs you could have counter rotation in some cases.

Also, I had a problem with retracting body to the tail and sliding tail. The cant working more as a lift at 55 degree on my front foot helped me with that and exiting from turn now is a piece of cake. Plus I have a much better acceleration. That is called "gas pedal" by some carvers and racers. I have never had a problem with turn initiation but a lot of problems with exit from turn. The cant disks helped to solve that, but I can handle carving without them too :)


Have good runs,

Maciek
Have good runs!

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Post by rcrobar » Thursday 28 March 2002, 17:41

Wow ...

Thanks guys, I have a little bit of testing to do with my stance this weekend.

I'd love to read more about this, what/where is the link you mentioned.

Rob

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u should try it maciek once>

Post by nils » Thursday 28 March 2002, 18:26

Maciek, you are correct, but it is because you see extremecarving as a racer, not from the ecarve point of view...In the extremeturns described here, you are lying on both legs with same pressure during most of the turn, guiding the turn exactly with same weight on both feet.. I found actually that removing all cants and lifts helped me do it and made me feel i was almost forgeting to think bout the legs anymore for its more like when u carve with softboots, both legs...
I was also used to other settings like yours until i tried without it> it improved a lot my ecarving..
Would be nice to hear your feedback on it if you could also try to ride flat for a day, using the ecarve technique described here...

Nils

PS i ride with 54cm stance on a Oxygen proton 172GS, with 60/55°angles, am 82 kilos and 190cm

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Re: u should try it maciek once>

Post by Maciek » Thursday 28 March 2002, 19:42

nils wrote:Would be nice to hear your feedback on it if you could also try to ride flat for a day, using the ecarve technique described here...

Nils
Nils,

I tried it once long time ago, but I will try it again for sake of recalling how it feels and giving some feedback :D


Have good runs,

Maciek

P.S. I do not look at it from racer's perspective only (let's leave it behind). I try to setup someone in carving right now (giving some tips and riding behind day by day) and I see some minor differences. Also I myself carve it most of the time and this season rarely using 'it' in gates :wink: Let's just drop that my input about acceleration :oops:
Have good runs!

StanChung

tried it today

Post by StanChung » Saturday 30 March 2002, 4:11

Today I tried to put some of the stuff I've learned from this site into action. I brought out a wide board with more effective edge than I'm used to. I took my heel and toe lift away. I measured the true centre of my board and re-set my bindngs. I used to angles recommended on this as well.
The results?
It felt very strange at first. But the carving feeling was incredible. As I practiced trying to lay out, I realized that equal pressure on both feet is very important.
Next test. I replaced my bindings with heel and toe lifts. I felt way more comfortable, but I could NOT carve as well. Very interesting.
Racing technique, powder technique, and "extreme carving" technique all have there differences.
But...
I love the feeling I get trying to lay out on the snow. I praise this site. I have tried the equipment set up as recommended here, and now I am a believer. Thanks very much. Your videos are great proof of the technique.

Guest

Post by Guest » Saturday 30 March 2002, 15:11

Hi Stan,

All you say here is exactely the same that I experimented years ago when we where looking for how to carve the most efficiently as possible.
The strange feeling you had at the beginnig is normal and appears every time when set up has been changed (in any way).
For exemple, Patrice and I practice freeride too. When we go freeriding (on freeride gears) after having carved, we both feel strange at first. Then, when we go back on our carving gears, few days later, we feel strange again, although we are used to do it for years!...

Concerning the uncomfortable "no pad" setting, we feel it too, but we noticed that it can be improved by setting the boots a bit softer. The same thing should be done when increasing the feet stance.


Have a lot of pleasure with your new settings. :D

Jacques

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Post by rcrobar » Saturday 30 March 2002, 18:02

I too tried the stance and board settings that your site recommends.
WOW!!

Test one -

I usually ride well back of center with lots of heel and toe lift, which creates big looping stable GS turns.
Next I centered the stance on the board, same angles that you recommended .... but I left the toe and heel lift in .... as a test.

I had a lot of trouble holding an edge with the toe and heel lifts in.

Test two -

The flat, centered, no lift style that you recommended. WOW!!!
The board felt like it was stuck on RAILS and it made very quick slalom turns. I could feel the board's edge from tip to tail.

I actually got flash backs to 1991. My Checker Pig G6, Emery Surf bindings and Rachlie Snowboarder boots, complete with a board bag from Madd Mikes. Remember the gear.

I liked and was impressed with the settings, but I am admittedly a surfer not a racer; although I really like both styles.

My only problem, with the set up, was the SUPER LEG BURN that I got on my front thigh, I recalled this from 91 as well. The set up works great, but was a little uncomfortable. Oh I missed my lifts for comfort.

Any suggestions or reasons why only one leg would receive so much strain?
Stance width maybe?
When is a stance width too narrow?
The Burton PJ boys were down to 16inches at times.

(I'm using Raichle 325's right now, with a 19.5 inche stance width.)

Thanks for the tips and ideas.
Had fun playing with the gear this weekend.

Rob

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Post by rilliet » Sunday 31 March 2002, 11:54

Hi Rob,

I'm glad you had pleasure with our settings.
Self experimentation is the best way to understand what we are talking about. :wink:

Concernimg your thigh burn, as I don't know about all your settings and gears, it's difficult for me to find the solution. But I propose here few ideas:
- 19.5 inche (=53.5 cm I think) stance width seems to me a little bit too much. Changing this parameter very few can make huge feeling defferences.
- Your bindings may be too stiff. With narrow race boards, the strength goes through the side of the boots and so the bindings have to be very stiff. With our settings we have more toe-heel edge switching, so tightening the bindings to much is not useful and only makes the position uncomfortable and more difficult to ride.
- Soften your boots: as for the bindings, too stiff boots are not good in this kind of settings. With your Reichles, try this: put the back level down, and turn the rotative swith 90 degrees counter clockwise, sothat the forward canting is blocked on the back mouvement only. Put the hardest plastic tongues on both boots.
This will allow you to flex and move on your board and prevent the boot shell deformation that makes total unprogressive knee flexing movements.

Concerning minimum width stance: If you feel unstable, if you need to move your arms a lot to compensate imbalance, then your stance width may be too narrow. In opposite, if you feel uncomfortable, have difficulties to turn and to flex your knees, then your stance width is probably to important.

Have good testing

Jacques

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Post by rilliet » Sunday 31 March 2002, 12:10

Hi Macieck

Concerning the toe-heel pads:
Our advises are supposed to fit our setttings. With narrow boards and higher angulation, the problem is totaly different and then you may be right...

You saw Nils' answer who has a narrow board and high angulation...

The best is to test. :wink:

Jacques

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Post by rcrobar » Monday 1 April 2002, 20:57

Thanks for the tips Jacques

When testing the flat vrs lifted settings, I didn’t really spend that much time trying to make the stance more comfortable. I had the screw driver out a lot as it was. Next day I will try your suggestions for comfort.

I really like the idea of using the stiff race tongue, with the Raichle boot back level down and the rotate switch turned 90 degrees counter clockwise. I’m going to try this my next day boarding.

I think that the stance was too wide also, I have short legs ... a 32 inch inseam.

My bindings did also have a “stiffer” rubber pad between the board and binding, which restricts lateral knee movement.

Again, thanks for the tips and the time you take to respond.

Rob



PS - Jacques your mentioned ... “I don't know about all your settings and gears.”

If your curious, here is the test day setup that I tried.
As I said before, I’m a surfer not a racer...here it is.

Board
I was using a 174 Prior 4WD with a beefed up flex pattern. This board is 21.4 cm at the waist and has a 10.5 m radius. I asked the guys at Prior to make it stiffer for the hard packed crud, as I am 6’, 190 pounds and have size 10.5/11 feet. It’s a great board that works fantastic in heavy, soft snow I see a lot of out here.
(This past weekend it snowed 20cm then went to +3 degrees C., the snow was great for making snow men, but tricky to carve.)

Stance
Nine days out of ten, my angles are set in the mid 50’s to the high 40’s. On my test day they were set at 54 F and 48 back. At these settings my toes still hang over the edge. I get “boot out” when really trying to lay it down. The back lever hits the snow on heel side turns all the time.

Bindings
I use the step in Burton Physics, not having a toe bail has helped me reduce the “boot out”. These bindings have two toe options, I DON’T use the physics toe piece, the 5mm bail allows for more movement. The step ins also have a choice of a hard or soft rubber bumper that goes between the board and binding, the soft bumper allows for more lateral movement.

Boots
I use Raichle 325’s, usually with the softer of the two tongues. I also leave the “Allen Key” boot canting adjustment (On the inside and outside of the ankle bone) FREE ... so that I can move my knees around .... like a surfer. I’ve pondered knocking the pins out and removing the “blocking and Locking” mechanism for the boots. They always hit the snow.

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Post by DaveS » Wednesday 3 April 2002, 12:10

Jacques,

Just a minor correction to your calculations on Rob's stance:
rilliet wrote:
- 19.5 inche (=53.5 cm I think) stance width seems to me a little bit too much. Changing this parameter very few can make huge feeling defferences.
19.5" x 2.54 (conversion factor inches to cm's)= 49.53 cm which is very similar to Patrice.

Very much enjoying the discussion,

Dave

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cant vs. stance width

Post by NateW » Thursday 4 April 2002, 11:15

With Bomber bindings, because of the nature of their cant/lift adjustment, there is none of the rotation side-effect described above when you change the adjustment.

Consider your front foot for a moment - when you lift the toe, the knee is moved toward the heel edge a bit, but if you also cant inward, the knee moves toward the toe edge. Combined, the knee has just moved backward, toward the tail of the board... so if you move the whole binding forward 2cm or so, and the end result is just a wider stance. The only angle that has changed is at the hips, which now spread slightly further.

I think it is mostly a matter of personal preference, but I like my current setup: 3 degrees tilt in the front, 6 in the back. I like to use the tilt because it lets me run a wider stance with more comfort than the 'flat' setup, and I like the wider stance.

If you change your cant or lift, it is probably a good idea to pay attention to the change in pressure around the cuff of the boot. It should be equal all the way around. Tf there is more pressure on the inside of the cuff, you may be able to fix that by setting your stance narrower; if there is more pressure to the outside of the boot cuff (the side facing the tip or tail), try setting the stance wider.

Hmmm... The angle of the boot's forward lean adjustment is probably another variable to consider... I suspect has as much effect on rotation as the cant and lift. It might be possible to compensate (or aggravate) some other change this way. But now I am just thinking out loud...

Guest

Post by Guest » Monday 8 April 2002, 4:40

The front thigh burn is gone.
I followed each of the recommended setting ideas ... now I’m a believer.

Here is what I ended up with.

Stance Width 48cm (narrower than before)
Stance angles 54F 48B (This is all my Burton bindings will allow.)
Bindings flat on the board and centered. (As close as I could get)
Raichle boots with the stiff tongue, both levers turned down
(I didn’t turn the locking knobs, I left them both set “Free”

I really noticed the “progressive flex” that you mentioned. I loved it. I got a much more flowing or fluid motion when the turn was initiated.

In the summer time I ride a “Carve Board” (http://www.carveboard.com/) one of those huge skate/surf boards that have 8 inch air filled wheels. With the boots and board set up as you recommended, I really got that fluid flowing heel toe feeling in the ankles, a very similar feeling to the carveboard.

I finally stopped messing with the settings and just enjoyed the day of riding. It was a day of beautiful hero snow and grooming. Three different times today people came up to me and said “I saw you coming down” .... “Do you like those hard boots?” .... " I gotta try them."

For each person I recommended that they visit Extremecarving.com and Bomberonline.com., I also mentioned that there are many other great links. I explained how great tips and ideas can be picked up ... if you are open and willing to try them.

Spread the word.

Thanks for teaching this old dog a few new tricks.
Rob

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