Inspiring video: SUP foiling, performance with rotation technique

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Inspiring video: SUP foiling, performance with rotation technique

Post by fivat » Sunday 17 March 2019, 18:11

This is not snowboarding, but this is an inspiring video for most alpine snowboarders in my opinion.
I hope you will like watching it:



Look at the rotation technique of hips and shoulders to drive the board. :bravo:
Usually we see this in surfing, as the surfers have no straps (no bindings), except when they are towed by jet skis. If they don't make rotations properly, to pilot their board, they fall in water.
In SUP foiling, though the guys have straps (bound feet like the snowboarders), they STILL DO rotations. Sometimes they use their paddle to help. But without paddle they still do rotations.

The Swiss Snowboard School understood the rotation since its creation and did teach it in Switzerland and indirectly worldwide. Some of the founders were skateboarders too.

As Swiss snowboard instructors, Jacques and I naturally taught the rotation technique to all our students and applied this when we started to link fully laid turns from 1995 to 2001 (this became "extremecarving", the original and simple word which we invented in 2002 for www.extremecarving.com creation). Then with all Swoard team, we have been showing this over Internet and have given lessons in more than 52 events, or many camps (with Petr, Sebastien, ...). All this in parallel to the use of particular setup and snowboards which have been developed by riding in rotation (Swoard snowboards).

After so many years, we notice that the difficulty is still to make people really understand all the benefits from rotation technique and proper setup/gear for it. Like surfing (or SUP foiling), one can really drive the board, increase pressure on toes or heels, improvise, PLAY with the terrain... be fluent and get more freedom, more performances in any conditions. 8)

I see now more softboots snowboarders making rotation than alpine snowboarders (in %). I have also seen a lot of progress in ski technique in 25 years, thanks to carving (which comes ironically from alpine snowboarding).
As a previous racer, I know that stiff setup and high bindings angles are pushing the alpine riders to stereotypes: chest facing downhill permanently, counter-rotations, edge change by extension, or turns made only by bascule, etc. One needs to rethink ones setup and to make a real effort when learning rotation. What we called the "Egyptian position" at the end of front side turns is something which seems not simple for many riders, while it is so trivial for surfers and SUP foilers. 8O After changing bad habits, it's then so easy and natural...

Surfing is mother of all board sports and best source of inspiration! :pray2:

Patrice Fivat

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Re: Inspiring video: SUP foiling, performance with rotation technique

Post by rcrobar » Saturday 6 April 2019, 4:22

Hello

I agree Patrice, the surfing based rotation technique is the mother of all board sports and has many positive attributes that translate directly to snowboarding perfectly! The fact that Switzerland and the EC web site adopted the rotation method years and years ago as a base for turning a snowboard has further encouraged a lot of riders to give it a try.

One of the most unfortunate things, IMHO, that has happened over the part 15 years of the EC web site is the confusion between ECing as an advanced web site only! They don't see that the rotation technique is actually perfect for beginners and the idea that ECing is simply rotational turns pushed to the maximum lean; with a few concepts/adaptations added by J&P:)

For what ever reason many can not see the connection between the rotation technique and how it works perfectly for a beginner, intermediate, expert carver and expert carver that wants to focus on ECing. People seem to confuse the term Push-Pull (Load-Unload) part of the legs as a separate technique that is different from that of the surf based rotation foundation; when in fact Push-Pull is simply one part or variation of the leg compression-extention timing within the rotation technique. I also feel that new riders have a difficult time seeing that the amount of rotation can vary from a lot or a little, depending on the size and shape of a turn; ie ( shaped turn vs C shaped turn.

In the future I would LOVE to see a Swoard video that spends the majority of the filming NOT laying out any turns. Spend time showing how the rotation technique works on and off piste, in gullies, through trees, etc. Add to this wish list updated videos showing how to do the rotation technique basics for a new rider starting out. If only we all had more time!

Most of us do not live near an ocean. For those of who don't and would like to practice the rotation technique in the summers I would highly recommend trying a skateboard with 'surfskate' trucks. There are several manufacturers, but CARVER was the first and IMHO the best. These boards can change a few meters of flat concrete in to a surf based rotational training playground!! Check out these videos for both the fun vibe and the rotation technique.

Cheers
Rob




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Re: Inspiring video: SUP foiling, performance with rotation technique

Post by rcrobar » Sunday 7 April 2019, 15:32

Hi Patrice
fivat wrote:After so many years, we notice that the difficulty is still to make people really understand all the benefits from rotation technique and proper setup/gear for it. Like surfing (or SUP foiling), one can really drive the board, increase pressure on toes or heels, improvise, PLAY with the terrain... be fluent and get more freedom, more performances in any conditions.

I also really agree with your point here Patrice!

I'd like to take a shot at explaining the rotation in more detail, maybe it will spark a good discussion on rotation specifically that will help all of us; me included.
Experts out there PLEASE jump in and help! Please forgive any errors in my explaination.

- The rotation takes place only during the transition
- The turn begins when the rotation stops
- The rotation has the potential to generate momentum
- There is no rule on how far the upper body-hips must rotate, it can vary
- During the heel and toe side turn, the body is in a static position (not rotating), sometimes called + & - position
- a leg bend/compression generally takes place during the rotation/transition
- a leg bend/compression at the transition permits the rider to extend then compress the legs once the turn has begun
- the force and timing of the leg extension-compression, load-unload during a turn can vary
- EC specific leg movements know as the Push-Pull are meant to extend-bend the legs, load-unload the boards' edge, with a force and timing meant to manage edge pressure throughout the turn, specifically when the board is tipped to a very high edge angle
- Rotations all but eliminate Counter-Rotation

*Note - the rider has the option to bend, extend or keep the legs in a fixed position during the rotation/transition.*

The largest muscles in the body are the legs and torso, this is where the power of the rotation comes from. The feet planted firmly make it possible for the legs, hips AND shoulders to SNAP and generate power if required. A solid base of support, snowboard edge set in the snow, is similar to having your feet firmly planted on the ground. I believe that the idea that the rotation starts from the ground up and may partly explain why riders who like the rotation technique like flatter stance angles.

A powerful rotation in surfing/snowboarding may used to 'power' or 'drive' the board in whatever direction you like.

When the amount a board is titled on edge is varied, when the pressure of the feet (front, back, both feet) is varied, when the power of a rotation is varied (small gentle rotation or a large power rotation) when the power and timing of the leg extension-compression is varied (gentle or powerful), a rider can gain great control over how much power and in which direction they would like to drive or turn their board; making it possible to improvise and play with the terrain you are riding.

Below are a picture and a video that I hope might further illustrate this point. The standing wave video of Gerry Lopez I find is really helpfull for a few reasons. The standing wave simulates a ride very similar to a snowboard riding down the fall line. The fact that the wave is standing makes it possible to view the turns/rotations from the front, side and above. All this, I have found, makes it easier to see how the rotation works in surfing and why it also works so well on a snowboard.

Cheers
Rob

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8UszcP ... gs=pl%2Cwn

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Re: Inspiring video: SUP foiling, performance with rotation technique

Post by yomama » Sunday 7 April 2019, 20:45

Thank you Patrice and Rob for the great videos.
Rotation is really obvious in those videos and shows the benefits of fluidity that comes with it.

Agree with Rob on the need to show EC has rotation as a fundamental technique (combined with push-pull) and when pushed to its "extreme", one ends up EC-ing.

I can see how many (I was one of them) see the laying out flat on the slope as the immediate goal and don't see the subtle and mandatory movements from the hips or looking over the shoulder (<-- this means rotation before engaging the backside turn).

Laying out a turn a full speed is exhilarating, no doubt. If it is the immediate goal for many like I was when watching the videos. Then it is understandable to come into the turn facing the nose as our survival instincts will tell us to fall in the direction we are going with our hands on front of us. Doing so makes us more static and less fluid/dynamic in our turns per above videos.

Please be careful with Rob's advises on the Carvers as I ended up buying the Mini-Sims and I bring it with me on planes and whenever I go. It is that addictive. :silly:

I will start foiling this summer in Santa Cruz (or wherever there are some swell to ride) and do intent to apply the rotation technique taught to me by Masters Patrice & Jacques. :rules: :clap2: :bravo:

Yomama

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Re: Inspiring video: SUP foiling, performance with rotation technique

Post by gege31 » Monday 8 April 2019, 12:25

Rob,
Maybe the Swoard team could do some more detailed videos on the whole EC technique to learn the steps one after the other. There is already one video on this that I think is really good: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqY2dSXY_lM&t=64s
I agree with you that the Carver is very good to practice the technique. I think it's closer to the water surf technique than to the snowboard one, but still it's very good and useful. And if not fully applicable still a lot of fun and good sensations.
Just be careful on the body parts that start the rotation. In surf and snowboard it starts from the upper part of the body, below parts following. In tennis (which I practice), and I assume golf (which one of my tennis teachers practices and teaches) and probably baseball as well, as you said, it starts from the legs pushing and starting to rotate, then the hips and finally the shoulders. This is actually quite confusing to me to do the rotation one way for surf and snowboard, and the other way for tennis.
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Re: Inspiring video: SUP foiling, performance with rotation technique

Post by fivat » Monday 8 April 2019, 15:15

Hello guys and gals,
gege31 wrote:
Monday 8 April 2019, 12:25
Maybe the Swoard team could do some more detailed videos on the whole EC technique to learn the steps one after the other. There is already one video on this that I think is really good.
Why? If there is already this good video, use it. It has been linked in this Forum many times, as it was made by our ancient instructor at ECS from 2009 to 2012 for Russian-speaking participants. This is a good summary in one part of our small historical tutorials and lessons given by Jacques and I (there are some details which I would show differently, but it's globally good).
Students can watch 1000 videos, at some point it is necessary to take a course or to get individual tips. That's why we organized 52 events so far and that Sébastien, Petr, Rafal, Vincent, Ben and others are making camps.

Other good videos were made by our instructor Petr: https://www.youtube.com/user/PetrLorenz007









@Rob: excellent post and inspiring videos! :bravo: 8O
It's good to have sometimes a deep discussion about ride technique. Nowadays Internet has become poor, with social networks focusing on maximum of "likes", auto-glorification selfies, small sentences, no real discussions.
I will take time later to reply to some of your good points!
Bravo Rob! 8)

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Re: Inspiring video: SUP foiling, performance with rotation technique

Post by gege31 » Monday 8 April 2019, 16:27

I meant just like you, let's use the existing videos. And thanks for these other ones from Petr.
I agree that videos are one thing, but the best is to practice with an instructor. And Seb is really good (I haven't tried the other ones).
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Re: Inspiring video: SUP foiling, performance with rotation technique

Post by rcrobar » Monday 8 April 2019, 18:49

Hello GeGe31

Thank you for your comments in this thread and I 100% agree with your comments about the Carver being more like surfing; I just think of it as cross training that is really fun!

I don't quite agree with your analogy of the rotation being different for some of the sports, but am always willing to listen:)

Perhaps thinking of all the rotations in all of the sports as a simultaneous movement of the shoulders, hips and legs where the base of support is the feet will create a clearer understanding?

You have studied tennis, as have I, so you know that a shoulder rotation with no hips is all arm and no power. Try to rotate your hips without moving your legs, can't be done. Now try to imagine doing a full tennis swing while standing on a hockey rink in tennis shoes, a hard rotation will send your feet sliding all over the place.

IMHO in snowboarding a hard rotation is a simultaneous movement of the shoulders, hips and legs that pushes off of an edge that is firmly planted into the snow. For a surf board the base of support are the fins and the boards' edge. It is my experience that the rotation in surfing, snowboarding, tennis, hockey shot, baseball swing, golf swing, etc are all exactly the same.

Think of the rotation as a summation of forces of all the muscles discussed; the muscles fire in order like the crack of a whip that happens so fast it appears to be a simultaneous movement.

Hopefully a good discussion will clear this up for both of us as I sincerely try to have an open mind:)

Edit - Hi GeGe31
I have been pondering how we might be seeing things so differently regarding the rotation and I think I get what you are saying. For my tennis comparision, to keep the concept simple, I had imagined a flat green run where the snowboarder is trying to accelerate via the leg extension and transition-rotation.

I can see how down weighting at the transition with a leg compression could make the rotation concept confusing when comparing it to tennis; I think I get what you were saying. Perhaps the tennis comparison is good way to explain that the hips and shoulders move together, but not a good comparison with the legs because of the possible variations in timing of the load-unload in snowboarding. I went back to my original post and removed the tennis example to hopefully reduce confusion. The learning never stops!

Rob

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Re: Inspiring video: SUP foiling, performance with rotation technique

Post by rcrobar » Wednesday 10 April 2019, 5:24

Hello

Thank you for the kind words Patrice:)

Two ears, one mouth. This is a Canadian saying that basically means listen more often than you speak, or in the internets case ... type.

I have tried to get the ball rolling with regards to a discussion specifically about the rotation. I have added/edited a few more lines to my original 'Rotation' post, inspired by GeGe31's post, and am hoping that we can all hear the thoughts of more people; EC instructors out there, etc.

Time to read more and type less:)

Cheers
Rob
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Re: Inspiring video: SUP foiling, performance with rotation technique

Post by gege31 » Wednesday 10 April 2019, 17:24

Hi Rob,
I think we are mostly aligned on our understanding of the rotation. It's true it's very similar and in all cases (at least snowboard and tennis here) it imply the shoulders, hips and legs. In all cases you start by rotating the shoulders and body in general in the opposite direction compared to the one you'll rotate to actually do the movement you want. Doing this stretches the muscles and will help generating the movement and power.
The only difference is that in snowboard and surf you'll start by releasing first the shoulders, then hips and legs follow. All this associated to the push-pull to anchor the board in the snow. In tennis you first push on your back leg, then rotate the hips and finally the shoulders follow. The arm being loose enough to follow the whole movement and transmit the power to the ball. The back leg should also finish the movement in front, or at least not stay backward.
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Re: Inspiring video: SUP foiling, performance with rotation technique

Post by fivat » Wednesday 10 April 2019, 19:29

Rotation as you both, Rob and Gege, describe is natural movement and in harmony with the body.... Good for the body and the back.

Since the nineties, I have known many riders who were making counter-rotations. Riding strong and fast, but with counter-rotations, or no rotations (chest facing downhill permanently). Most of them had back problems with time, and they stopped snowboarding. Some have come back to skiing.

In 32 years I got not any back problem, as well as all my instructor friends, and all Swoard team.
In my opinion, this point about healthiness is important, it shows how rotation is natural and safe for all board sports.

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Re: Inspiring video: SUP foiling, performance with rotation technique

Post by redia » Thursday 11 April 2019, 12:19

fivat wrote:
Wednesday 10 April 2019, 19:29
In 32 years I got not any back problem, as well as all my instructor friends, and all Swoard team.
In my opinion, this point about healthiness is important, it shows how rotation is natural and safe for all board sports.
C’est une de raison pourquoi j’ai commencé la technique de Swoard :bravo:
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Re: Inspiring video: SUP foiling, performance with rotation technique

Post by gege31 » Thursday 11 April 2019, 13:22

fivat wrote:
Wednesday 10 April 2019, 19:29
Rotation as you both, Rob and Gege, describe is natural movement and in harmony with the body.... Good for the body and the back.

Since the nineties, I have known many riders who were making counter-rotations. Riding strong and fast, but with counter-rotations, or no rotations (chest facing downhill permanently). Most of them had back problems with time, and they stopped snowboarding. Some have come back to skiing.

In 32 years I got not any back problem, as well as all my instructor friends, and all Swoard team.
In my opinion, this point about healthiness is important, it shows how rotation is natural and safe for all board sports.

Patrice Fivat
I agree it's natural. But if you have 20 years of counter rotation before it's hard to change. It's ok now for me, also sometimes the past technics can be willing to come back...
And the problem is that in France some (all or almost?) still don't teach the rotation technique. In January I had my sons taking snowboard lessons at the ESF. The first morning my younger son didn't make it. He also fell a bit bad on the wrist and stopped the lesson. I went with him in the afternoon and taught him the rotation. In two downhills on the carpet (what's the english word for this kind of lift?) he started turning and gained confidence. After two hours he could be a bit faster and smooth.
The next morning, back to the ESF. I was there when they started with the teacher. My son had a bit of trouble to make the first turn, I told him to rotate the shoulders like the day before. He turned. But the teacher told me that he shouldn't do shoulders rotation and rather do another way that I don't remember. He also criticized a bit the fact that I moved the bindings angle a bit forward rather than duck stance which my son didn't feel comfortable with.
All this to say that there is still quite some educational work to do in French snowboard schools.
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