hardboots for EC: another approach

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phil_wi
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Re: hardboots for EC: another approach

Post by phil_wi » Thursday 24 January 2019, 13:58

Good questions.

"Backland Ultimate" - holy ****, those are the boots for me... I need to ensure I can buy some springs first though, before buying those and some none-Intec bindings.

rahan31
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Re: hardboots for EC: another approach

Post by rahan31 » Thursday 24 January 2019, 15:02

Hi M_Orange

Thank you for the link, these system looks really good for splitboarding. Main difference with the systems posted here is that the travel of the frontside spring is less important on the Link.

For splitboarding with my system I find removable pins:
removablepin.jpg
removablepin.jpg (15.82 KiB) Viewed 2480 times
Backland ultimate have no tongue, a minimalist liner and very light buckles, i wouldn't use them for carving. Spring system can be mounted on them.

No I don't have any website, pm only.

Don't know why so much spring systems, may be because every rider have personnal needs and have pleasure in concepting and riding his own...

Extreme carvers are strange people :D
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fallen angel
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Re: hardboots for EC: another approach

Post by fallen angel » Thursday 24 January 2019, 15:38

May be I am wrong, but I think that Backland Ultimate (actual model) is impossible to transform in EC boot. It has single open/cloosing system. That means you can't loose the hook!
https://www.atomic.com/en/files/product ... 80_000.png

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Re: hardboots for EC: another approach

Post by rahan31 » Thursday 24 January 2019, 16:32

For me the hook is the same as the other models, so that I think we can replace it with a spring system.
As I said don't make EC boots with Ultimate model wich is made for training, use carbon or classic model.
Even for splitboarding I would use a carbon model, I can't imagine riding without tongue.
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phil_wi
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Re: hardboots for EC: another approach

Post by phil_wi » Thursday 24 January 2019, 17:45

Backland Ultimate: I hear you - I think a tongue is something I'd not want to be without, I'd not noticed that!

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Re: hardboots for EC: another approach

Post by fallen angel » Thursday 24 January 2019, 19:34

Please look at the picture! hook at same time is buckle for upper cable, it is impossible dismount hook, for actual model! :doh:

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Re: hardboots for EC: another approach

Post by Mr_Orange » Thursday 24 January 2019, 20:41

....Already placed my order for the Backlands a few days ago and it's on the way from Europe. It was a good price.

I actually don't splitboard at all. I was considering it for a while but never gotten into it. I've been using La sportiva Siderals for freeriding and park riding for the last 3 years. I really don't care about the touring functionality (walk mode) stuff and whether the spring system would interfere with that.

Looking again at that instagram post though, the white boot in the picture is actually the Ultimate version. My Sideral was the same way where you can simultaneously tighten the upper strap and stifften the upper cuff for ride mode. You can easily just find some alterative way to buckle the top. Even just a ski strap works pretty well. I've tinkered a lot with the Sideral so i've collected various parts including tongues and buckles. I actually bought those atomic spare tongues but what's the point of the tongue if the spring system controls forward lean?

The part I'm really concerned with is getting the best progressive spring/lean performance possible. There was really no spring system for the Sideral. rahan31, the Phantom Link has 1/2" on the toe side and 1/8" on the heel side. Your springs obviously look longer. Does longer springs mean a smoother more progressive range of motion? Also, can you adjust the spring range of motion on your system and do you have alternative springs that are more or less stiff? Didn't Bomber have that kind of adjustability on their sping system? Can you tell how yours performs compared to what you see with the Link?

I think with the phantom system, even with less travel, if you buckleed the upper cuff with a ski strap or booster strap, it can give you that extra bit of progressive flex. I just noticed the heelside on the phantom is a 'rubber shock', so it might not even be so progressive.

The phantom system interests me because it might feel good to ride powder in the walk mode. rahan31, do you sell that removable pin too? I guess that would achieve the same thing.

Last year i returned to soft boots (Burton driver x's) and while i like them for certain things like park riding, i still get foot numbness like i always did from soft boots pretty much every run. My shell punched Sideral with Zip fit liners is the only boot setup where i can ride in no pain all day. So, I'm pretty sold on AT boots.

My Coiler board is coming in this weekend. Can't wait.

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Re: hardboots for EC: another approach

Post by rahan31 » Friday 25 January 2019, 12:36

Hi guys

@fallen angel: Yes I saw the upper cable, you can remove it as the hook system too and replace it by a strap (available as spare part).
ae5019080_002.jpg
I check the Atomic website: https://shop.atomic.com/en-gb/men/touri ... boots.html and the hook pair I have from the carbon model. The hook system is called FREE/LOCK 3.0 on the Ultimate and FREE/LOCK 2.0 on other models. The differences I can see on the pictures are: the upper cable, different model of scerws on the shell and a little difference in the molding of the aloy hook (for saving a few grams I think). As the shell is similar to the carbon model I think we can mount the spring system but to be sure we need to measure it on the shoes.

@M_Orange: So much questions!

"The phantom system interests me because it might feel good to ride powder in the walk mode." NOPE! You can not ride the Atomics in walk mode because they are totally free in pivot with a range of 75 ° (80° on the Ultimate), backside should be impossible, look at that:
ATOMIC-backland-light-skis-chaussures-5.jpg
For powder riding you can use softer springs.

Yes on the picture of the Link white pair is Ultimate, but Phantom works for Splitboarding. If your goal is carving Ultimate is not the good model, sorry :|

"what's the point of the tongue if the spring system controls forward lean?" The tongue (and particularly the soft one) don't control the forward lean you're right, it's the spring job. However tongue is necessary to divide contraints on your foot/leg, I think carving without can hurt you...

Why I would never use the Ultimate: 1. No tongue, 2. Front buckle close to the foot, 3. Shell is completely open, snow will get in, 4. The liner is more a sock than a liner...:dogeyes: Ultimate are designed for climbing in touring with a lighter weight, not for riding.

"The part I'm really concerned with is getting the best progressive spring/lean performance possible." It was my goal when I designed my LPSS, that's why I'm using long springs. I made an abacus with 14 different spring configurations so we can choose hardness and total range. Range on toe side can be adjust from 29 to 39 mm, no spring on heel side but a rubber too. My system have a bigger forward lean than the Link, so more progressive. Main benefit of the Link is the walk mode for touring.

Hope my reply will be useful. :chinese:
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phil_wi
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Re: hardboots for EC: another approach

Post by phil_wi » Friday 25 January 2019, 14:04

Ok, the "ultimate" doesn't sound suitable. Lighter is always good, but that looks a bit too stripped down.

I'm thinking... assuming the various spring systems here are available, this opens up usage of any Atomic boot which has that back-fastening doobrie on the back there.

(a) The Backland Carbon is an obvious choice for splitboarders or those who hike. But anyone else maybe could also look at other Atomic boots which would also be spring-compatible, for example... (b) The Atomic Hawx Ultra XTD 100, or (c) Atomic Hawx Ultra XTD 130.

Going from (a) to (c) gives more weight and stiffness, but for this usage the springs will control the stiffness, so assuming the lateral stiffness of all of these is adequate, the lightest boot is the obvious choice, right?

You get more buckles with the heavier boots, although in powder the bottom two of my HSP buckles just fall open however much I try to fasten them, so I'm thinking two buckles is sufficient for that. Maybe piste usage requires more, but I'm not sure that I'm applying a lot of force right down there - the turn action comes from the hips and hits the top of the boots, if anything. Right?

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Re: hardboots for EC: another approach

Post by lonbordin » Friday 25 January 2019, 17:51

LIVE LIFE- Dave Wilcox
Questions-> lonbordin at hot mail dot com

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Re: hardboots for EC: another approach

Post by rahan31 » Friday 25 January 2019, 18:35

@phil_wi, yes the Atomic Hawx can be modified with a spring system too, but their shells are for me too long for carving. Backlands with one buckle plus one strap work very well.
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Mr_Orange
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Re: hardboots for EC: another approach

Post by Mr_Orange » Friday 25 January 2019, 20:08

rahan31, I didn't realize you didn't have the heelside spring. Why do you have 2 different color springs though (the red and green)?

Drupi's system looks it does have the heelside spring.

Can some explain pro's and con's of doing the heelside spring? I mean in theory, having a progressive heelside sounds great.

Like i said, got spare tongues, buckles, and a zip fit liner. Pretty handy with tools and t-nuts too. I'll see how the Ultimate feels and add stuff on from there.

The Ultimate front looks so clean.

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Re: hardboots for EC: another approach

Post by H2O » Friday 25 January 2019, 22:02

Mr_Orange wrote:
Friday 25 January 2019, 20:08
Drupi's system looks it does have the heelside spring.
Yes, frontside and heelside (shorter) springs.
With heelside spring you have a progressive heelside turns, expecially on variable terrains and bad snow conditions.
For me it’s a pro’s to have heelside spring.
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Re: hardboots for EC: another approach

Post by Mr_Orange » Saturday 26 January 2019, 18:10

Ya, heelside sounds like it'd be great.

By the way how difficult is it just to build your own without any cnc? Just saw, dremel and drill.

It seems the like main piece you need to get a hold of is some sort of U-bracket or L-bracket.

Has anyone posted instructions on how to do so?

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Re: hardboots for EC: another approach

Post by rahan31 » Tuesday 29 January 2019, 16:20

About heelside spring I made a post in the french section, here is a translation:

For the backside spring or rather its absence it is voluntary. For years that I am interested in these modifications I noticed that this spring was used for nothing or almost, I explain: backside is so powerful that the shoes come systematically in rear stop canceling the effect damping of the spring. This is particularly true in the case where the backside spring is softer than the frontside spring or springs (case of my Raichle). I tried on a head to put a very hard spring, same thing. I understand better now the original hardness on the boots (RAb, UPZ or MS) ...
I didn't invented anything, Jacques and Patrice made this observation in ... 2003!
springs_modification.jpg
springs_modification.jpg (36 KiB) Viewed 2273 times
Yellow is the color of the hardest springs so we understand that a turn does not do much.

For the Atomic I therefore chose not to mount and replace them with an elastomer that acts as a damper. This makes it possible to finely adjust the front angle of the shoes and to favor the use of longer springs on the frontside side. If I had mounted, since there is no mechanical backgauge, I would have to compensate the race of the back spring by increasing the inclination of the shoes, not good for me.

Of course I could put one on my system but I don't need it. Other guys prefer mount a backside spring but I don't have any feedback of riding, all the modified Backlands already used by riders I know have no backside spring.

The red and green springs are here to have different hardness during progression, soft in the beginning and hard at the end.
Some prefer only one spring for constant progression.
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