Feedback on pics...sorry no video...

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vizsyn
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Re: Feedback on pics...sorry no video...

Post by vizsyn » Wednesday 18 July 2012, 0:16

Hi Abrax!

EUREKA!!!

I followed your link to the other thread, and what I read there was the key to finally understanding what was holding me back from being able to smoothly link my C-turns at higher speeds!

Abrax/Rob: Please give me your feedback, what will follow is my thought process of what I think should be happening during a Push-Pull run. Please correct me if I'm wrong :D

This is what I think I should be doing in order to properly execute correct push-pull(and later full-blown EC):

The idea is to use rotation to engage and set the edge early on, and also dialing in the correct posture for the specific turn(either -Egyptian frontside or +Cross backside), and then use a smooth, progressive push to establish a consistent edge pressure, progressively extending the legs as the first half of the turn develops, ending at about 90% leg extension at the point where the board has traveled halfway through the arc, pointing straight down the slope. After that point, I need to actively (and smoothly) PULL the board back in a progressive fashion to maintain the same the edge pressure and also preventing edge pressure from overloading as it hooks back around at the finish of the turn. THROUGHOUT the turn sequence, as I am pushing/pulling, I also have to maintain the the proper rotational posture that was established at the beginning of the turn. At the very end of the turn, I should have just completed the "pull", now low on the board, still in proper Egyptian or Cross rotational posture, all set and ready to then rotate AND push myself into the next turn.

From what I can recall, to the best of my memory, this is what I was doing last season when I started out on alpine... :oops:

I was pushing the board out too late, initiating a full push when the board had already traveled 50% though the turn, nose pointed directly down the fall line! While the edge would usually engage, I wasn't actively PULLING the board back towards me to offset the centrifugal force that would naturally build up as the board whipped through the final portion of the carve. In fact, my instinctive urge was to fight back and try to push even harder against the rapidly building centrifugal pressure as the board traveled through the second half of the arc, winding up with my legs becoming 100% extended with my knees locked. With my legs now fully locked and extended, I was now unable to use my knees as a suspension to absorb the irregularities in the piste, resulting in a very choppy ride. Worse, this tendency to "over-push" (where I should have been pulling) would almost always result in edge pressure overload, and the board would wind up skipping out. On top of that, lingering problems with that old counter-rotation habit would occasionally have me straying from the posture that I was supposed to keep all the way through. :oops:

I look forward to your feedback, and I can't wait to rebuild my fundamental turning technique.
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Re: Feedback on pics...sorry no video...

Post by Abrax » Wednesday 18 July 2012, 7:31

Seems that you've extracted the pure essence in these few words :-)
vizsyn wrote:The idea is to use rotation to engage and set the edge early on, and also dialing in the correct posture for the specific turn(either -Egyptian frontside or +Cross backside), and then use a smooth, progressive push to establish a consistent edge pressure, progressively extending the legs as the first half of the turn develops, ending at about 90% leg extension at the point where the board has traveled halfway through the arc, pointing straight down the slope.
- the PUSH is not so slow. And IMO it's better to think of "finding your way above the board" than simply focusing on pushing the board from you (if you think of pushing you will usually succeed and the result is the edge drop) because all you need is to smooth and continuous move. Don't trust movies, it is not true that 100% of situations lead to completely laid down turns! Sometimes you stop somewhere in the far end of the first phase of the turn and you actually don't extend more because this would result in the edge drop (especially on the beginning when you don't have that much feeling in your legs) .
vizsyn wrote:After that point, I need to actively (and smoothly) PULL the board back in a progressive fashion to maintain the same the edge pressure and also preventing edge pressure from overloading as it hooks back around at the finish of the turn. THROUGHOUT the turn sequence, as I am pushing/pulling, I also have to maintain the the proper rotational posture that was established at the beginning of the turn. At the very end of the turn, I should have just completed the "pull", now low on the board, still in proper Egyptian or Cross rotational posture, all set and ready to then rotate AND push myself into the next turn.
After that point... You WAIT-> completely laid down, you simply do nothing. This lasts 0-3 secs!!! depending on the slope conditions / your clothes grip / your glove grip etc. and THEN again I would not mistake the PULL with nothing more than releasing the legs pressure -> of corse sometimes when you need a really fast transition (on narrow slope) you need to actively pull.
If you won't release the pressure or PULL this should lead to elegant EC stop :-)

PUSH : I would say 95% instead of 90% ;)
vizsyn wrote:I was pushing the board out too late, initiating a full push when the board had already traveled 50% though the turn, nose pointed directly down the fall line!
Seems that you have discovered my biggest mistake! :-) It has taken hours to be able to go really perpendicular before the backside turn and finally I had to see the video of myself to believe that I am not doing this right!

keepTheSport: Even if you don't yet understand or think that this is a bit too advanced it is good to try to understand all this new info as this is really helpful when you know how this works. The need to feel the pressure which was laying somewhere there in my mind was successfully keeping me from EC. I've made my biggest progression after having understood what was really going on. How the hell did the Swiss discovered this by themselves?

Finally we have mislead a bit with all this info :-) This is the topic about the most basic situation (the position on the boardduring the turn) and we talk the most advanced questions here... I'm almost feeling sorry for pushing this thread to this direction. But IMO this knowledge is simply going to help. Sooner or later :-)
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Re: Feedback on pics...sorry no video...

Post by keepTheSport » Wednesday 18 July 2012, 8:31

Hi

Abrax that link is certainly very, very helpful. To be able to get a description of what it 'feels' like when doing the carve in terms of pressure is helpful to me. There have been times when I have been (I think) in a carve, that has whipped me round and across the slope. I then usually panic and get myself out of it, as I don't really understand what is happening. I just don't know what it feels like to be doing this properly.

When Vizsyn says "...the board has traveled halfway through the arc, pointing straight down the slope. After that point, I need to actively (and smoothly) PULL the board back in..." Unless I am mis understanding, I always thought you start to pull yourself out of the carve when 'traversing' the slope :?: and quite clearly after the board has been pointing downhill. When Vizsyn says "..after that point..", it gives the impression that you would be somewhere between pointing downhill and starting to traverse when pulling out of carve-----This last bit would be a bit scary for me 8O I'd rather come out properly across the slope :lol2:
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Re: Feedback on pics...sorry no video...

Post by Abrax » Wednesday 18 July 2012, 8:49

From what I feel during a EC turning:

PULL starts usually AFTER crossing the slope fall line and AFTER one has started to traverse (as this starts exactly when you are a bit after straight down the fall line in the middle of the turn) .

As I've said then you simplly do nothing (0-3secs!!! ) and THEN you start to PULL. This is something like forcing this fantastic completely laid down position to last a bit longer.

PUSH ends BEFORE one has crossed the fall line.

The last sentence is at some stages the most important thing in EC. ESPECIALLY on black slopes ;)
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Re: Feedback on pics...sorry no video...

Post by Abrax » Wednesday 18 July 2012, 8:56

One more thing helping so much while learning is to try to disassemble the turn into many many moves. Then try to focus on one and only one part each time you make a turn. Once you get the feeling of what is actually happening, you will know when/ where you are and this usually helps to understand where is your biggest mistake.

The other VERY important factor in a learning curve is to try to eliminate just one or AT MOST two mistakes at once and no more. So now for you it is shoulder rotation (no counter rotation) and the second is to 50/50% and not 80/20% balance. This is BLUE or even GREEN slope... The slowest possible to be able to spot things :-)

You need to master these two BEFORE you will really focus on anything else.
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Information Overload

Post by rcrobar » Wednesday 18 July 2012, 9:24

keepTheSport wrote:....sorry to be so daft but how does it help Is it because of some kind of momentum that can be used switching from a - to + or vice versa...ain't quite visualizing the benefit of this one
Your questions are good questions and are in no way daft, your intuition is actually very good; I only hope I have explained them in a way that does not cause any confusion.

Abrax has done a great job of listing many of the benefits of completely finishing a turn, but the goal I hoped to see you achieve was as Abrax guessed different ... I was still focusing on your backside rotation.

Here goes, I'll try to give more detail that I hope does not confuse:

When in the full or perfect Minus (-) position, for discussion sake, let's say that the body is at ZERO degrees in relation to the board.

When in the full or perfect Plus (+) position, for discussion sake, lets say that the body is at 90 degrees in relation to the board.

If you start the Minus (-) position from a rotated position of say 20 degrees, never actually getting to the ZERO position, and then rotate to a Plus (+) position of say 80 degrees, never actually getting to the 90 DEGREE position, a window is opened to get caught, stuck or 'handcuffed' in a counter rotated position after a few successive turns ... the mistakes compound each other.

So my hope was for you to see that going from a full - to a full + positions would help to greatly reduce or even eliminate counter rotations. When you are NOT in a counter rotated position it is WAY easier to rotate into the PLUS + position that you are going to work on. Please note that this is an educated guess as we have only seen a few still pictures.

Your idea of momentum is an understandable one, years ago many riders thought that J&P where doing what many called a 'Pre-Load' phase before moving into the plus position (winding up sort of thing), but what was really happening was they were just fully completing their frontside turn.

A little more information:

The body and the board should completely finished the turn. A turn, for our discussion, is said to be completely finished or closed when board has drawn a full 'C' shape in the snow, the board is now positioned across the hill and is perpendicular to the fall line.

Man, I hope all that doesn't make it worse.

Perhaps it is best to just think about the rear shoulder and see if the rest just falls into place automatically :wink:
vizsyn wrote:This is what I think I should be doing in order to properly execute correct push-pull(and later full-blown EC):
Viszyn, I think you nailed it with your explanation of what you think should be happening ... and Abrax has done a beautiful job of filling in many key details.

In an effort to help out a bit more I would like to supplement Abrax's last post with a few thoughts:

The Push - The analogy I like to use to describe the Push phase is riding a swing set.

Every person who has ridden a swing set knows the exact MOMENT when a push is required to keep the swing moving. Every person who has ridden a swing set is able to CONTROL the swing so that it may go higher, stay the same height or even slow down via the effort they put into their push.

Controlling the Push on a snowboard is very similar to riding a swing.

The weight transfer throughout a turn is very important and very difficult to teach-explain:

1) Beginning of the turn - more weight on the back foot.
2) Apex of a turn - equal weight on both feet
3) End of the turn - More weight on the front foot.

The timing of this weight shift, combined with the push, makes it possible to speed up, maintain speed or slow down ... all without skidding.

I sometimes wish the Push-Pull was called the 'Squat, Extend, Squat' ... as it seem to create a good mental image of what is going on.

The turn begins the moment that the rotation stops.

Wow, what a LOT of information from this thread! :clap2:
Rob

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Re: Feedback on pics...sorry no video...

Post by Abrax » Wednesday 18 July 2012, 11:48

:-)

BUT:
rcrobar wrote:1) Beginning of the turn - more weight on the back foot.
2) Apex of a turn - equal weight on both feet
3) End of the turn - More weight on the front foot.
1. agreed,
2. agreed
3. not agreed!!! Usually move to back again to make the pleasure last longer!!!
rcrobar wrote:The timing of this weight shift, combined with the push, makes it possible to speed up, maintain speed or slow down ... all without skidding.
Or in the other words: weight balance makes turns variable radius possible even on constant radius boards :-)
rcrobar wrote:I sometimes wish the Push-Pull was called the 'Squat, Extend, Squat' ... as it seem to create a good mental image of what is going on.
Not agreed... If you consider PUSH/PULL as squat -> you suggest that you have 50/50% wieght balance and same knees angles... So you will more likely go to the famous "toilet position" :(
Don't forget that going down is COMBINED with twisting!!! Or somewhat it does feel like it was. But definitely this is not a squat! Rear leg is bent as much as possible and forward leg "over-straightened" (just before the backside turn inclination). Your balance should be 70% back and 30% front. This is how it works for me. This also allows to touch the snow almost at the moment when the boards still runs flat on the slope and has not yet started it's backside edge to grip. This hand on the snow helps so much...
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Beer Time

Post by rcrobar » Wednesday 18 July 2012, 17:29

Hi Abrax

So many damn details to work out!!

The squat comment is not meant to be quite so literal, more of a quick comment/analogy like the swing set ... a way to think of the general down weighting, then pushing, (along with the rotations, etc) for very new riders, etc. I now see that a very experienced rider like you reads much more into this.
Abrax wrote:Rear leg is bent as much as possible and forward leg "over-straightened" (just before the backside turn inclination). Your balance should be 70% back and 30% front. This is how it works for me. This also allows to touch the snow almost at the moment when the boards still runs flat on the slope and has not yet started it's backside edge to grip. This hand on the snow helps so much...
Abrax, this is a great comment that creates a great visual :bravo:

The pressure towards the front comment is just a quick push at the moment you are ready to get up from the laid out position.... after maintaining a long, fun, laid out position in the weight distribution percent that you described. I see now how my wording is misleading in my 1, 2, 3 transition step comment. :oops:

Communicating clearly via a forum can be very difficult, I think we did pretty good over the many comments in this thread ... especially when much of the typing took place so late at night.

Anyway, who is buying the next round of beer? :D

Cheers
Rob

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Re: Feedback on pics...sorry no video...

Post by keepTheSport » Wednesday 18 July 2012, 20:12

Hi

Well, believe it or not all this detail is really helping. I like the: 'push finishes before fall line';'1) Beginning of the turn - more weight on the back foot.'; swings, squats, 70% 30% etc etc etc All so daaarrnn helpful :D

Yes I agree to not try and do too many changes at same time. At times I am happy just to do 1 (as I usually forget the others anyway :wall: ). ..

...Okay (in my mind I've already got + - nailed 8O ), so I'm in the mood to have a go (just for fun of course :tongue: )at a laid turn. I mentally visualize that I must get weight on back leg and that I must finish push before fall line....(I wouldn't really be too bothered about the rest going wrong) and then my OCD would kick-in and I would do the above mentioned again and again and again, until I feel it's ingraining itself into my muscle fibres :lol2: ...then I would work on the next bit... the reason I feel I could do this :?: .. is because you guys have broken your instruction and experience down so well :clap3:

So I say thank you very much :bravo:

BTW I have just bought another pair of snowboard boots :clap: This time for women and definitely smaller than the ones I have which I think were more for men but I still like them :) They are Raichle and I :pray2: they have a tighter fit. Anyway just the fact that I got some more alpine gear makes me happy, even if a pair of these boots end up with 'mint and chives' growing out of them :silly: I suppose you would then call them alpine plants :lol2:

Any more beers?... sorry I finished this one off whilst bidding for my boots
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Re: Feedback on pics...sorry no video...

Post by Abrax » Wednesday 18 July 2012, 20:23

Haha - this was really really good. It gave me so much positive vibrations... And hey - it's the middle of the summer!!! We are all mad you know?

This is my second favorite thread in forums !

Rob, every comment made so far is good and informative because it shows people how a specific move is felt by the others. This info is really so hard to be found!

When a novice rider wants to catch some deep perspective, it is usually hidden and simply forgotten through all these years which has passed since our advanced riders were novice :-) They can tell you about a move but they have forgotten how did they succeed to make it for the first time.My point of view is really fresh because I've just made my first true EC season! :-) On the other side, I've started to teach roller-blading lessons years ago and I've been always practicing a specific kind of theory :-) People says that I can tell about a move and this is way different than the other instructors :-) They simply catch this much faster :bravo:

Seems that it's really time for beer now!

keepTheSport:
Hey, do you have something against Raichles!!?? I've got a pair and I am going to ride them this year!!! These are 1998 NAGANO Limited!!! Raichles are still good! No matter where they were produced! :wink:
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Re: Feedback on pics...sorry no video...

Post by keepTheSport » Wednesday 18 July 2012, 20:30

Hey Abrax

I have just bought Raichle boots only 10 minutes ago and my Dee luxe le Mans won't really end up as pots for plants :lol2:

Perhaps I wasn't very clear, and my ironic views on things I suppose can be taken the wrong way 8O

I'm over the moon I got Raichle as I know my springs will fit these boots too :bravo:
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Re: Feedback on pics...sorry no video...

Post by keepTheSport » Friday 20 July 2012, 8:46

Well I did mean to say CONGRATULATIONS on your first EC season Abrax :bravo:


I'm jealous :mrgreen: :lol2:
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Re: Feedback on pics...sorry no video...

Post by Parallax » Sunday 22 July 2012, 11:45

Hi all :))

Keep the Sport, your backside turn seems to be lettle less effective. Some part of your weight is going out of the edge. Hm.. Now I'll try to explane this.

I created this picture for my russian friends:
Image

Red line - this version of the passage of a backside one of the most common. This occurs when a rider does not use the muscles of the body to resist external forces in a turn.
Take a chair and try to change the positions of "red line" and "Green line" for a few times. You feel the work the ABS muscles and your hips.
When you following the backside turn some external forces will affect on your basic position. The magnitude of these forces is proportional to the speed of your run, so you need to slow down to minimaze them. Be patient and consistent, first 5 runs of your snowday you shouldn't ride on black slopes :) take one or two greens, then some blues, may be reds.

Green line - is the correct position, when 100% of your weight is on the edge. But this position is possible only if you will keep your body strong. The arrow near my head shows, how you can help youself to do the backside correct. Tilt your head to the center of turn, it will help to keep your body straighten.
Mini trees on left - that is how you will see the world. All that was familiar to see the horizontal, will be first at a slight angle, then more and more :)
And After that..
Image
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Re: Feedback on pics...sorry no video...

Post by keepTheSport » Sunday 22 July 2012, 21:56

Hi Parallax

Thanks for extra advice. So basically I need to keep the side of my body in a straight line, and to help with this I need stronger abs? I'm just trying to simplify your instruction so I can keep an easy image in my mind :)

Believe it or not I have taken up bodybuilding, and my abs are definitely getting stronger, so is my back - particularly from doing dead lifts :lol2: Some of the advice I have received in this thread and from videos that I have watched, I noted how more weight was put onto the back leg before a turn (and whilst crouched low). To help with this I have been doing squats and leg extensions. So while I am trying to get used to being in hard boots/alpine board, and getting to grips with some basic stuff I know I need to be stronger. Hopefully it will all tie in together. I'm probably the only one on this site that needs to do weight-training to be able to EC :lol2:

Parallax, I don't mean to be rude but that pic/link re EC on snow at bottom of your post, gave me a bit of an unwanted and horrible shock, in that some of the pop-up ads/links were porn 8O :snooty: If I wanted to look at stuff like that I wouldn't be visiting this site. Not sure if you realise the content :think: ...and no this has nothing to do with 'tracking' of previous searches :lol2: as I'm a conspiracy theorist fan, hardly likely to get those kind of ads 'pushed' at me from searching on Mayan Calendar December 2012 stuff :roll:

Now that I've mentioned it you'll probably get a few more hits to that link :badgrin: .... I won't even try the other one.. :silenced:
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Re: Feedback on pics...sorry no video...

Post by Parallax » Monday 23 July 2012, 15:53

Keep, i'm so sorry :))
This russian picture storage was very popular few years ago. I haven't been there two years, or something.. I didn't know about porn content. Now I will look back more often :)))))))))

I don't need the strong ABS muscles to carve fast, becouse I just use the correct ones that I have :)
But now i'm workin on new tutorial video, "How to prepare yourself to the EC season"..
keepTheSport wrote: I noted how more weight was put onto the back leg before a turn (and whilst crouched low)
Be carefull with this. This moving is not a reason for something, it's just a look. When your stance is 60/55 - bending of your legs looks like going back, and it's normal.
But if you will think like "Ok, and now i'm going to back leg" will occure some troubles in future :)
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