Plates... Naked truth :-) PART 2 (season 2011-2012)

[pokkis]

Patrice, note taken, and i will promise not let you use my heels, step in bindings and leash

What come perfect arc and stiffening board with plate, it is more so that plate allows board bending and doing perfect arc due rider can not twist board out of shape, and plate does not stiffen board lengthwise, it might slightly add more torsional stiffness, but usually that is considered as good thing.

[leeho730]

I tried plate with dual 158 and the result was... interesting.

But increased height and weight were quite noticeable when super quick edge chage was required.

I'm designing extrememly low, lightweight plate with direct connection with td3 sole blocks using TD2 baseplate (so that the total height would be actually same or lower than normal TD3SW setup minus 3mm).... hopefully it will be ok...

[Alex]

I'm very curious about the opinions of ECarvers who tried plates... When it comes to physics, yes it seems reasonable .

To be honest I never tried Plates, yes I'm lazy, but I always believed that plates are not thought for Ec and I think that is mainly a physics matter.
I notice that for Ec gain sensibility have more pros than cons, also if the setup lead to have less control at high speed.
Race and carving technique load a lot the edge to makes the turn, the push phase is like an impulse (jumping in crossover when the board is nearly flat), and after the transition the rider pull progressively the legs and plates works well just like the car's suspensions. Instead with Ec, just after the transition the rider's legs are bend, the board has low load and for the whole turn the rider should keep the pressure low, so the force (push) is not an impulse but should be handled and distribute in the first half of the turn. The legs needs sensibility of the board and the terrain because the board works very inclined and too much pressure break the contact between the edge and the snow...edge and rider should talk directly without intermediary ( the plate )
But I know is better try before judge...so next season will be an occasion to test plates

[fivat]

Interesting discussion guys!

For good extremecarving we recommend riding flat (no canting). When stopped (or in his sitting room), the rider may feel uncomfortable. But when riding, there is a natural canting because the board is bent. (See this very old thread from July 2002!)

With a plate, which is totally stiff, there is of course no natural canting. The extremecarver may feel uncomfortable and can't balance his weight from one foot to the other as he is used to. Some adaptation is required I guess, and this may imply a return to bindings with canting?! So again we retrieve a setup for racing.

it might slightly add more torsional stiffness, but usually that is considered as good thing.

I have to study this on the snow. It's maybe a good thing for a board which has no wonderful torsion stiffness, but not for a board with optimized torsion control and distribution of the torsion stiffness (like the Swoard). The plate may interfere with the intrinsic performances of the board, especially on a wide board. This is a point which I will study.
Maybe someone should design a board which matches the plate constraints. A snowplate!

Patrice Fivat

[pokkis]

Maybe someone should design a board which matches the plate constraints. A snowplate!

JJ's board is atleast designed to be used with his plates only, and some Apex board models are also designed to be used with their plates only.

[fivat]

Yes, for racing.

Patrice Fivat

[pokkis]

Yes for racing

[fivat]

... and actually less than 1% of the alpine riders are *really* racing.
(and less than 1% of the snowboarders are alpine snowboarders)

Patrice Fivat

[pokkis]

Defination for "really" ? I assume that you refer to participating to WorldCup etc?
Anyway i like race when ever there is race avaible, and we are only ones to organize proper hardboot race serie in Finland

But back to topic, i think in this phase it is quite natural that you get such special combos only for race guys due whole new 3rd gen plate concept is so new.
Plus additionally price of plate is pretty much same as price of board so it is quite challenging to try sell them as package to normal free carvers.
But i think when time goes then prices will come down with higher volumes and new ways of building plates and those mechanics.

This hassle bout plates reminds very much situation we had when first metal boards came out.
Most of folks commented that those are usefull only on race track, they will break easily and they cost too much. But situation is now different, they are in normal use by regular norm carvers and they survive as god as non-metal boards and they dont cost a leg.

[fivat]

Yes about the first two points. Yes too about the fact that there are many similarities (concerning public reactions) in between the new things presented to the public (well, metal = aluminium sheet = Titanal = 20 years old technology... but which has been popularized recently despite the first issues, breakage for example).

Back to the main topic:
I wonder if the plates could attract more people to alpine snowboarding or not. On the one hand it can generate interest in something new (well, it was pointed out that an alpine beginner should not use plates). On the other hand, alpine snowboarding may appear as too technical, too specific and too race-oriented.


Patrice Fivat

[tali]

Sorry for the flood, guys, but this reminded me of "The Tale of Cross-eyed Lefty from Tula and the Steel Flea" by Nikolai Leskov.
There, a Czar of Russia, while visiting England is shown a variety of modern inventions, including a small mechanical clockwork steel flea (as small as a crumb, and the key to wind it up can only be seen through a microscope). The Czar sends his servants to Tula to find someone to outperform the English and to better the English invention. Finally, after improvements by the Tula gunsmiths, the flea is given back to the czar, to whom Lefty explains that he needs to look closer and closer at the flea to see what they have achieved. The Czar winds it up and finds out that it doesn't move. He discovers that, without any microscopes, Lefty and his accomplices managed to put appropriately-sized horseshoes (with the craftsmen's engraved signatures) on the flea (Lefty made the nails, which cannot be seen since they are so small), which amazes the Czar and the English (even though the flea now cannot dance as it used to).

[pokkis]

Back to the main topic:
I wonder if the plates could attract more people to alpine snowboarding or not.

To be honest i dont think so. This is already much more expensive than normal snowboarding, and plates do not make it any cheaper.
Plates will be used only some people who are heavily involved to this scene otherwise already.

[WinterGold]

I guess that on not too steep slopes I will be happy, especially on bad snow.

That is the crucial statement for me. I like to ride the whole mountain and not just the one perfect slope (although I would go down the perfect slope as often as possible ).
And often the conditions are not the best and I still want to have fun. Even on crowded days. Or slushy snow. Or whatever ...
So which equipment should I choose for these conditions?

[joemzl]

Answer:

Plates will be used only some people who are heavily involved to this scene otherwise already.

For you they may be die eierlegende Wollmilchsau (couldn´t be translated).

The rest of the carving family will wait what the time will show us.

[Abrax]

There is an opinion within the group of imperfect carvers, that there is a need to buy for all the stuff which can lead to any better edgehold.

People make everything to "buy" the ability to extremecarve.

So Yes, there will always be a group of buyers who will buy the plate even if it would be clear that it is definitely not for EC.

The same with the springs we produce and even with a Swoard. It is not true that You can't ec with a simple hard board or even a (hard enough) softboard. Usually at a proper skill level it can be done.

But we buy Swoard, mount springs, cut the boots and use these completely uncomfortable traditional loose bindings (instead of badass intec's) to help ourselves with the ability to carve in all conditions.

IMO, if the plate will help on imperfect slope, YES it will have it's customers. Even if it is heavier, higher or requires canting... Price does not matter.

The other side of this situation is that the imperfect carver will benefit from the plate and will be able to carve thanks to a plate but he will not be able to extremecarve because of it mounted down there...