Technique: how to rotate hips into the turn

[Transistor Rhythm]

Lately I have had some succesful attempts at layed down turns, but I feel my technique still isn't quite what it should be . It feels like I am twisting my torso and shoulders into the turn but my hips still faces a neutral direction somewhere between my feet. Especially at heelside turns this seems to bite me.

I can change the direction where my hip is pointing by flexing the knees a bit and moving my knee in (heelside) or out (toeside) and guiding with my hands, but I'm not sure if this is the right way. I think I need some pointers or drills I can do to improve on my rotation.

[starikashka]

Hi Lucas:-) there is no secrets :-)rrrotation ^-)))) you just need to control the postion during your practice...if you know for sure it is the only problem

Video helps a lot

[pokkis]

My vote goes also for practice.
Here is short clip of my rotation practice from today, i've been trying to do practice it whole summer.
http://pokkis.1g.fi/kuvat/Video/ec2.wmv

[Oleg]

I like the state of fence in video - as in Russia

[pokkis]

It was fine untill last Friday,, it stopped nicely flying cones but then some drunk kids needed show their strenghts
Fence is temporary there dure this path is just built, this is why surface is so smooth and fast, just came from weekly training session, now i'm prepared for Finnish Champs on weekend

[Transistor Rhythm]

My vote goes also for practice.
Here is short clip of my rotation practice from today, i've been trying to do practice it whole summer.
http://pokkis.1g.fi/kuvat/Video/ec2.wmv

Looks like a great drill, technique is almost the same only the turns are shorter and not so inclined. If I watch closely you rotate most with shoulders, and not so much with the hips? And your rotation is at maximum when you have bent your knees most?

Too bad I have no skateboard to practice, I must suffice with our indoor ski hall

[pokkis]

Luckily on our "hall" we can carve up and down hill

Yes this is good practice and even rythm is more tighter but muscles and body actions are quite equal. Plus boards dont cost leg, you just need good surface on flat or modest slope and all weather ecept rain is fine time for practice. What could be better way to do rotate practices than in nice sunshine

[Swiss Mike]

Looks like a great drill, technique is almost the same only the turns are shorter and not so inclined. If I watch closely you rotate most with shoulders, and not so much with the hips? And your rotation is at maximum when you have bent your knees most?

When you rotate you shoulders you will automatically rotate your hips.

It's more a question of how quick and how "wide"/ample you turn your shoulders to transmit the energy to your hips and eventually feet and board.

[skywalker]

Looks like a great drill, technique is almost the same only the turns are shorter and not so inclined. If I watch closely you rotate most with shoulders, and not so much with the hips? And your rotation is at maximum when you have bent your knees most?

When you rotate you shoulders you will automatically rotate your hips.

No, this is not true, neither in theory nor in reality. Full stop.

skywalker

[pokkis]

Once in life time i must partially disagree with master Tom
When you rotate your shoulders it is natural that also your hips will turn.
But only if you let it turn freely with shoulders due you can stop hip rotation by your middle body.

[tali]

Hi, everybody!

Just to ease the pain of not carving, let's carve in theory.

When I, a hard-working newbe, tried to rotate with my shoulders (and the hips will follow), then observers could not stop telling me that I was too stiff... I was late in turning my body before entering the turn... was trying to fool myself by imitation of the turning via extending my front arm in the direction of the coming turn etc....

This ended when Jacques, looking at my striving to show him how well I could ride turning my shoulders, told me: "You are now thinking with your shoulders. Move your mind in the area of your hips - think from there". And ponted at the level of about 4 cm below the navel (in martial arts they call it tanden and try to initiate all movements from there). It helped.

Then we tortured Jacques for a while about the role of the shoulders in initiating of the turn and got the following answer: "The hips issue is, first of all, phycological. We need to think about hips, otherwise we will move only the shoulders. This is the same as with the name "push-pull": we should noth think about what is seen from the outside, we should think about the sensations that we feel inside our body.
Thus, if we focus our attention on the hips, then we are sure that they will turn too. Of course, the shoulders will start first, but the whole movement will be completely natural.
To summarise, it is very good to start rotation with the shoulders, but we should first of all think about the hip rotation. It is better to turn hips and shoulders together, it will make the body more stable."

Patrice also said that for beginner snowboarders, the turn by rotation technique is explained by telling about the shoulder rotation, because it is easier to notice when watching... But hips are the main generator of the rotation movement of the upper part of the body. So, when we say "shoulders" you need to hear "shoulders + hips"."

My personal understanding of all the above is the following: one needs to rotate the hips in order to turn simultaneously the shoulders by this movement. The rotation movement is conducted by the hips (from your center - martial arts), but is initiated by the shoulders.

To better understand this concept, I suggest doing the following exercises (better in front of a mirror or a camcorder). For better results, each movement should be done at least 6-8 times:

(1) Rotation from shoulders only: from basic position, arms slightly apart from the body, try to turn/rotate only by your shoulders.
Result: the shoulders are stiff, the hips are also stiff and late to follow the shoulders.

(2) Rotation from the hips only: the armes stretched (relaxed) along your sides, rotate your body from/with your hips.
Result: the movement is more unanimous, the shoulders and hips rotate at the same time. The hips are not stiff any longer, the shoulders seem not to be stiff any longer (but wait till the exercise # 3)

(3) Hold your arms in parallel to the floor (the body is like the letter T, if you forget about the head), rotate your body from/by your hips. Understand, that like this, it is easier to rotate, the overall amplitude is bigger, the change of direction is sharper. This comes from initiating-rotating movement of the shoulders, the main rotation movement being generated by the hips.

(4) Remember the feeling in the shoulders from the exercise # 3, relax your arms alongside your body (like in the base position), and rotate your hips, "launching" this rotation movement by your shoulders, thus adding some bonus amplitude to the overall movement.
Result: the overall movement, compared to #2, will become more relaxed, free, and efficient.

Enjoy

[Swiss Mike]

Once in life time i must partially disagree with master Tom
When you rotate your shoulders it is natural that also your hips will turn.
But only if you let it turn freely with shoulders due you can stop hip rotation by your middle body.

Exactly.

Skywalker you can't fight anatomy...
If you do the movement naturaly you wil eventually turn.

But sure you can alter the movement with your trunk to a certain point.

Ever figured out how iceskater turn when jumping and doing pirouettes ?
Everything starts from the head and the rotation is transmitted through the spine which can't really turn on itself again anatomy.

Try doing it just standing: Turn your head one way at the maximum without restraining. Your hips will turn...

[skywalker]

Once in life time i must partially disagree with master Tom
When you rotate your shoulders it is natural that also your hips will turn.
But only if you let it turn freely with shoulders due you can stop hip rotation by your middle body.

Exactly.

Skywalker you can't fight anatomy...
If you do the movement naturaly you wil eventually turn.

You did not say, that it's a natural movement.
Your point was, that hip "will automatically follow".
It usually does, and your point would be right this way. And there are a lot of carvers out there fighting with blocked hips dut to whatever reason.

Ergo: I was right saying that you were wrong. But we knew this already, right?



skywalker

[Alex]

Hi, everybody!

Just to ease the pain of not carving, let's carve in theory.

When I, a hard-working newbe, tried to rotate with my shoulders (and the hips will follow), then observers could not stop telling me that I was too stiff... I was late in turning my body before entering the turn... was trying to fool myself by imitation of the turning via extending my front arm in the direction of the coming turn etc....

This ended when Jacques, looking at my striving to show him how well I could ride turning my shoulders, told me: "You are now thinking with your shoulders. Move your mind in the area of your hips - think from there". And ponted at the level of about 4 cm below the navel (in martial arts they call it tanden and try to initiate all movements from there). It helped.

Then we tortured Jacques for a while about the role of the shoulders in initiating of the turn and got the following answer: "The hips issue is, first of all, phycological. We need to think about hips, otherwise we will move only the shoulders. This is the same as with the name "push-pull": we should noth think about what is seen from the outside, we should think about the sensations that we feel inside our body.
Thus, if we focus our attention on the hips, then we are sure that they will turn too. Of course, the shoulders will start first, but the whole movement will be completely natural.
To summarise, it is very good to start rotation with the shoulders, but we should first of all think about the hip rotation. It is better to turn hips and shoulders together, it will make the body more stable."

Patrice also said that for beginner snowboarders, the turn by rotation technique is explained by telling about the shoulder rotation, because it is easier to notice when watching... But hips are the main generator of the rotation movement of the upper part of the body. So, when we say "shoulders" you need to hear "shoulders + hips"."

My personal understanding of all the above is the following: one needs to rotate the hips in order to turn simultaneously the shoulders by this movement. The rotation movement is conducted by the hips (from your center - martial arts), but is initiated by the shoulders.

To better understand this concept, I suggest doing the following exercises (better in front of a mirror or a camcorder). For better results, each movement should be done at least 6-8 times:

(1) Rotation from shoulders only: from basic position, arms slightly apart from the body, try to turn/rotate only by your shoulders.
Result: the shoulders are stiff, the hips are also stiff and late to follow the shoulders.

(2) Rotation from the hips only: the armes stretched (relaxed) along your sides, rotate your body from/with your hips.
Result: the movement is more unanimous, the shoulders and hips rotate at the same time. The hips are not stiff any longer, the shoulders seem not to be stiff any longer (but wait till the exercise # 3)

(3) Hold your arms in parallel to the floor (the body is like the letter T, if you forget about the head), rotate your body from/by your hips. Understand, that like this, it is easier to rotate, the overall amplitude is bigger, the change of direction is sharper. This comes from initiating-rotating movement of the shoulders, the main rotation movement being generated by the hips.

(4) Remember the feeling in the shoulders from the exercise # 3, relax your arms alongside your body (like in the base position), and rotate your hips, "launching" this rotation movement by your shoulders, thus adding some bonus amplitude to the overall movement.
Result: the overall movement, compared to #2, will become more relaxed, free, and efficient.

Enjoy

I agree and I like your explanation, rotation for EC starts from the hips without using arms movements that generate moment of inertia. The hips movement is induced by legs so the full body (likes a screw ) make a rotation in the direction of the turn

http://www.alpinecarving.com/ec.html

[Alex]

Once in life time i must partially disagree with master Tom
When you rotate your shoulders it is natural that also your hips will turn.
But only if you let it turn freely with shoulders due you can stop hip rotation by your middle body.

Exactly.

Skywalker you can't fight anatomy...
If you do the movement naturaly you wil eventually turn.

But sure you can alter the movement with your trunk to a certain point.

Ever figured out how iceskater turn when jumping and doing pirouettes ?
Everything starts from the head and the rotation is transmitted through the spine which can't really turn on itself again anatomy.

Try doing it just standing: Turn your head one way at the maximum without restraining. Your hips will turn...

>>>Ever figured out how iceskater turn when jumping and doing pirouettes ?


I think that iceskater rotate the head just to point the look in the next direction they should go... i think this help balance!

>>>Try doing it just standing: Turn your head one way at the maximum without restraining. Your hips will turn...

In this way you need a lot of time to make a turn ... Try this other experiment: Stay over a doormat and rotate quickly the hips (you can keep shoulders in agreement whit the trunk... so we can say that in this case shoulders doesn't rotate) ...when you stop rotation -> doormat rotate

>>>But sure you can alter the movement with your trunk to a certain point.

movement exists thanks to action/reaction physic law, so to generate movement you need a force and a pivot... I think that EC rotation starts from the hips induced by legs and the pivot is the board on the snow

Sorry for my English