What do you suggest to do with your knees?? There was a thread on freecarve about this. But I think it was PSR describing more of a French/racing style of carving and not the Swiss/EC style with rotation. So what do you all recommend to do with the knees in the toe and heel turns???
So far I have been trying to turn the upper body then the knees then the board follows. On the toe side I will point the back knee more toward the hill. On the heel side, I tend to pull it in some. (At least that is what I do when I am thinking of it. Sometimes I slip back into the cross under some.) I haven't gotten to the push pull yet.
Thanks.
Dick B.
Knees and newbies
Moderators: fivat, rilliet, Arnaud, nils
Push Pull Explaination
Hi Dick
Rather then thinking of your knees pointing here or there, perhaps just think of bending and extending your legs in conjunction with the upper body rotation.
Breaking the Push-Pull down to three (3) variables might help give a clearer mental picture of the movement.
1) Upper body rotation
2) Legs going from bent to straight
3) Timing of the upper and lower body
Example: (Simplified to get a rider started.)
Imagine a rider who is rides regular or left foot forward. The rider is going to do a heel side turn.
The rider is standing on the board so that the:
left shoulder is pointing toward the nose of the board,
the right shoulder is pointing towards the tail of the board,
and the legs are bent.
The rider is now going to start the heel side turn.
As the upper body starts to rotate in the direction of the turn, the legs simultaneously start to extend.
Approximately half way through the turn the riders chest will now be facing the tip of the board and the legs will be completely extended.
Don’t worry about the knees pointing here or there, the timing of the upper and lower body is probably more important.
Timing Example:
At what point, during the turn, do you extend and rotate?
Imagine a young child learning to ride on a swing set without a parent being there to push them.
As the child is swinging backwards, with the legs bent, they must learn to FEEL for the exact moment when to extend or straighten the legs in order to keep the ride going.
When the timing is ON the child can extend the legs and keep the ride going.
As the child progresses they learn that extending the legs as hard as possible will make them to go faster and higher, or extending the legs with a moderate force will maintain the swing height. The child can also learn to make the timing be OFF, allowing them to slow down and get off the swing set.
The same is true for the push pull turn. The rider must learn to feel the right moment during the turn when to extend the legs and rotate the body. With the correct timing and force the rider can accelerate, maintain speed, or slow down or dump their speed.
Thinking of these examples while re-reading Jacques and Patrices’ technique explanations, along with watching their great training videos, might help you to get the push pulled dialed in.
Hope this helps.
Rob
Rather then thinking of your knees pointing here or there, perhaps just think of bending and extending your legs in conjunction with the upper body rotation.
Breaking the Push-Pull down to three (3) variables might help give a clearer mental picture of the movement.
1) Upper body rotation
2) Legs going from bent to straight
3) Timing of the upper and lower body
Example: (Simplified to get a rider started.)
Imagine a rider who is rides regular or left foot forward. The rider is going to do a heel side turn.
The rider is standing on the board so that the:
left shoulder is pointing toward the nose of the board,
the right shoulder is pointing towards the tail of the board,
and the legs are bent.
The rider is now going to start the heel side turn.
As the upper body starts to rotate in the direction of the turn, the legs simultaneously start to extend.
Approximately half way through the turn the riders chest will now be facing the tip of the board and the legs will be completely extended.
Don’t worry about the knees pointing here or there, the timing of the upper and lower body is probably more important.
Timing Example:
At what point, during the turn, do you extend and rotate?
Imagine a young child learning to ride on a swing set without a parent being there to push them.
As the child is swinging backwards, with the legs bent, they must learn to FEEL for the exact moment when to extend or straighten the legs in order to keep the ride going.
When the timing is ON the child can extend the legs and keep the ride going.
As the child progresses they learn that extending the legs as hard as possible will make them to go faster and higher, or extending the legs with a moderate force will maintain the swing height. The child can also learn to make the timing be OFF, allowing them to slow down and get off the swing set.
The same is true for the push pull turn. The rider must learn to feel the right moment during the turn when to extend the legs and rotate the body. With the correct timing and force the rider can accelerate, maintain speed, or slow down or dump their speed.
Thinking of these examples while re-reading Jacques and Patrices’ technique explanations, along with watching their great training videos, might help you to get the push pulled dialed in.
Hope this helps.
Rob
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Thinking about body movements
It seems to me that when i think about where and how my body is moving, i usually end up crashing or somthing like that. Do what is comfterable, and try not to think too much, it can spoil the fun.
Confused?
Will extending increase your speed? With the swing example your legs are moving in the same direction of travel. On a snowboard when you extend you are exerting a force perpendicular to the direction of travel.
"Push Pull" is a confusing name for a technique. Both "cross over" and "cross under" turns use a up and down motion. The purpose of the up/down motion is not to control speed.
Rob wrote
"The same is true for the push pull turn. The rider must learn to feel the right moment during the turn when to extend the legs and rotate the body. "
I thought you flexed you legs before the body rotation? This is what I got from watching the videos. One of us has to be wrong. EC usues a "cross under" technique???
Look at the "J" push pull turn from 1.06 seconds to 1.25 seconds.
T.
"Push Pull" is a confusing name for a technique. Both "cross over" and "cross under" turns use a up and down motion. The purpose of the up/down motion is not to control speed.
Rob wrote
"The same is true for the push pull turn. The rider must learn to feel the right moment during the turn when to extend the legs and rotate the body. "
I thought you flexed you legs before the body rotation? This is what I got from watching the videos. One of us has to be wrong. EC usues a "cross under" technique???
Look at the "J" push pull turn from 1.06 seconds to 1.25 seconds.
T.
Push Pull Push
Hello T
I hear you! The name can be confusing. It really is hard to put such a fluid and dynamic movement, like a turn, into words that clearly make sense. Add to the mix the MANY variations of any turn ("cross over" and "cross under" turns, speeding up or slowing down) and it can drive a guy crazy.
Maybe thinking of the Push Pull this way will help; (Again, very simplified)
Push 1 - Pull - Push 2
Push 1 = a heel side turn
Pull = transition between turns (cross over or cross under)
Push 2 = a toe side turn
Push 1 = legs start the turn flexed, extend fully, then end flexed
Pull = Legs are flexed (cross over or cross under)
Push 2 = legs start the turn flexed, extend fully, then end flexed
Repeat over and over until the snow is gone!
I hope this does not add to any confusion.
Rob
PS- Outsider may be right.
Think about it for a while, then just ride for awhile.
Yes, if the timing is correct (early in the turn as J suggested) and your legs push very hard.Will extending increase your speed?
When thinking of this example, think only of the timing and the feeling of the correct MOMENT when the legs are extended in order to go higher.With the swing example your legs are moving in the same direction of travel. On a snowboard when you extend you are exerting a force perpendicular to the direction of travel.
"Push Pull" is a confusing name for a technique.
I hear you! The name can be confusing. It really is hard to put such a fluid and dynamic movement, like a turn, into words that clearly make sense. Add to the mix the MANY variations of any turn ("cross over" and "cross under" turns, speeding up or slowing down) and it can drive a guy crazy.
Maybe thinking of the Push Pull this way will help; (Again, very simplified)
Push 1 - Pull - Push 2
Push 1 = a heel side turn
Pull = transition between turns (cross over or cross under)
Push 2 = a toe side turn
Push 1 = legs start the turn flexed, extend fully, then end flexed
Pull = Legs are flexed (cross over or cross under)
Push 2 = legs start the turn flexed, extend fully, then end flexed
Repeat over and over until the snow is gone!
I hope this does not add to any confusion.
Rob
PS- Outsider may be right.
Think about it for a while, then just ride for awhile.
eltrut,
Everybody moves up and down when turning and I mean everybody that has boarded for more than about 4 hours. I turn better when I get my knees right, I find it helpfull to focus on them they can make the difference. Knees are important. On heelside turn front knee very early towards direction of turn (but dont listen to me I have not boarded in a year).
PSR (he rocks) has a way of describing boarding dynamics in an understandable way, why not email him or post on freecarve. Or just spend some time reading throu' all of the freecarve technique section and find some advice that fits. It does not take that long.
This technique section of this site is ONLY talking about cross under turns.
I did some searching of the forms and found this post by rilliet
"We think, having already tried all the other techniques (counter rotations, extension (or cross over) turns, gesticulating and windshield wiper styles) that this technique is the most efficient in any situation. "
In your first post you indicate that you are trying not to do cross under while this site is suggesting that this is the way to go.
rcrobar,
I stand by my earlier post 100%
nils/rilliet,
I think the technique section need improving. We have an example of somebody reading that section and getting the wrong message. Of course if I am wrong feel free to kick my ass.
T.
Everybody moves up and down when turning and I mean everybody that has boarded for more than about 4 hours. I turn better when I get my knees right, I find it helpfull to focus on them they can make the difference. Knees are important. On heelside turn front knee very early towards direction of turn (but dont listen to me I have not boarded in a year).
PSR (he rocks) has a way of describing boarding dynamics in an understandable way, why not email him or post on freecarve. Or just spend some time reading throu' all of the freecarve technique section and find some advice that fits. It does not take that long.
This technique section of this site is ONLY talking about cross under turns.
I did some searching of the forms and found this post by rilliet
"We think, having already tried all the other techniques (counter rotations, extension (or cross over) turns, gesticulating and windshield wiper styles) that this technique is the most efficient in any situation. "
In your first post you indicate that you are trying not to do cross under while this site is suggesting that this is the way to go.
rcrobar,
I stand by my earlier post 100%
nils/rilliet,
I think the technique section need improving. We have an example of somebody reading that section and getting the wrong message. Of course if I am wrong feel free to kick my ass.
T.
Teaching Ideas
Hello T
YES!
Yes riders can go up and down, yes knee movement is important, yes PSR gives good advice, yes I too stand behind my earlier posts.
Perhaps a mis-communication?
From the several e-mails that Dick B and I have sent back and forth previously, I had some knowledge about the things he has been working on; hence my post tying to help.
It has been my experience, when teaching people starting out, that rotation is more important than knee placement ... when a guy is just starting out. The rotation often forces the knees into the correct position; this is why I suggested not thinking about the knees to begin with.
That being said, I do not consider myself an expert. I do have several years of experience boarding and teaching, but am very aware that a guy can always learn. This site, the Bomber site and the Freecarve site have all proven this to me repeatedly. I am ready to read and listen, but at the time no one was posting. I would love to get more ideas on how teach a newbee to succeed, lets hear them.
Rob
PS - Don’t forget that J&P have posted this very helpful site in their spare time for free, the technique section included.
YES!
Yes riders can go up and down, yes knee movement is important, yes PSR gives good advice, yes I too stand behind my earlier posts.
Perhaps a mis-communication?
From the several e-mails that Dick B and I have sent back and forth previously, I had some knowledge about the things he has been working on; hence my post tying to help.
It has been my experience, when teaching people starting out, that rotation is more important than knee placement ... when a guy is just starting out. The rotation often forces the knees into the correct position; this is why I suggested not thinking about the knees to begin with.
That being said, I do not consider myself an expert. I do have several years of experience boarding and teaching, but am very aware that a guy can always learn. This site, the Bomber site and the Freecarve site have all proven this to me repeatedly. I am ready to read and listen, but at the time no one was posting. I would love to get more ideas on how teach a newbee to succeed, lets hear them.
Rob
PS - Don’t forget that J&P have posted this very helpful site in their spare time for free, the technique section included.