My first try with alpine ....

[Alex56]

Last sunday I had my first experience with hard boot and alpine board, all borrowed from a friend.

It was heavily snowing and the piste was a mess, soft moguls etc.
Not the best conditions to test for the first time.

But the actual nightmare for me was the stance angle of the rear boot that forced my right leg (I am regular) and knee and foot into a totally uncomfortable position.

I had to stop after a few hours because my heel was really hurting trying to "rotate" inside the boot.
And later my knee too started claiming ...

ok, I have feet like a duck

No way I can stay with the stance needed by those 19 cm waist.
I was thinking I have to forget about alpine when I read this
viewtopic.php?p=6743#6743

It looks that Donek Axis is availabe with 23 cm waist that's close to the 25 cm of my burton cascade 163 that I use with 0° on rear .

Unfortunately I haven't found this option on Donek site where it's mentioned the 21.5 cm waist only.

Can anyone brightover and give any advice to a newbie willing to stop carving (sort of ....) with the soft and enter some serious turn ?
I do net expect myself in extreme carve (I am middle aged) but .....

Please help

Alex

[pokkis]

You can get both Donek Axis and Prior 4WD as wider by special request (and small extra charge) also F2 Speedcross might be one option, it is slightly wider and but that can not be tailored for you.

[xyxx]

or the rear boot angle was too low, or boots are too big. My experience tells me that angles around 55-60 are way more comfortable on hardboots than those around 40. A person riding a snowboard should have enough of freedom along the longitudal axis of snowboard, and low angled hardboots create in this point of view quite a hassle with their lateral stiffness.

It might be also a good idea to play a bit with your binding setup - cantings, heel/toe lifts etc.

Cheers

[frunobulax]

Sounds pretty much like the setup was not ideal for you. Can you tell something about the binding angles, stance, heellift, canting, boots, and so on? Maybe there's an easy-to-find mistake in this riddle.
Hardbooting should be comfy even with high angles so there's no use looking out for a wider board as long as you don't know the actual reason why it hurt you.

[Alex56]

binding angles were 55F 45R no front lift and a small rear heel lift (say 3°).

The board was a Burton race and the boots Raichle 125 that were very comfortable for walking or sitting in restaurant .

Also I cannot understand how can these angles match the correct base position shown here https://www.extremecarving.com/tech/tech.html without falling in "counter-rotation".

But what would be really wrong with a larger waist that could accomodate a 0° rear angle ? Well, I could try 5° if absolutely neede

Thanks for your advices

[frunobulax]

Hmmm, angles and everything sound reasonable to me. What do you mean by "my heel was really hurting trying to "rotate" inside the boot"? In which direction would it rotate?

I think the picture you refer to leads to misunderstandings. It shows a snowboarder with upper body facing forward in direction of the snowboard - and the text is "Incorrect basic position (counter-rotation)".
But if I understood it correctly "counter-rotation" cannot be seen on a single picture because it is a movement consisting of doing the wrong things at the wrong time. In fact, when falling into the backside turn the upper body SHOULD rotate into the turn and therefore face more or less forward (please J&P&N correct me if I'm wrong). At least that's how I do it and IMHO how J&P do it in their vids.

[Alex56]

My right (rear) foot was tryng to move from 40° to the more comfortable 0° forcing a clockwise rotation inside the boot.

No much disturb from the left (front) foot. Or I was hurted so much by the right one that did not even noticed that

About shoulders position ..... I think you are right saying

In fact, when falling into the backside turn the upper body SHOULD rotate into the turn and therefore face more or less forward

therefore the "basic" position before I start the backside turn should not already be as shown in the "incorrect basic position".

Now, when I am on a board with bindings angles like 55° 40° I am naturally comfortable in the "incorrect basic position".
But I am talking about me, it might be different for all the others

I wish I could try again these hard gears, I feel they are far better than softies for carving or in general use on the piste.

Unfortunately they are not much popular and are almost impossible to rent.
They are not cheap either and therefore I cannot afford a buy & try approach

[Freeky]

In contrast to most others I do not have that much experience, but by now I seem to be OK. So the days where you have all the pains, because you are standing completely wrong are still quite recent.

First of all the comment of xyxx is complete nonsense, if you are using the right technique. For example I know Patrice Fivat is using very similar angles. For the last few years I have been riding a slightly wider snowboard (19.5 cm waist) at 55/48 angles. So I have experience with a similar stance and know where your feet and body should be.

As I am in Holland and have no slope nearby to test I just experimentend in front of the computer on my normal shoes.

Result: If I stand about OK there is no pressure on the outerside of my back foot. I have a slight forward lean when standing OK, about an equal amount of weight on the whole foot. However if I do the "counter rotation" (over-rotation would be a better term), I find that immediatly I start to feel a lot of pressure on my small toe. It really feels like the foot wants to go to a less steep angle. Also when keeping that position and turning a little back it doesn't really help. In that case I end up standing on the heel and completely straight. So instead of standing completely straight I would advise you to lean a little bit more forward. Just so much that you are standing a little more relaxed, while you are not really leaning forward.

You can see the difference in the technique photo's as well. In the right position the back is slightly arched forward. And the shoulders are more or less in the natural position. In the wrong position Jaqcues back is arched backward and his shoulders are in a backward position as well.

It is difficult to figure things out from pictures and explanations. So you have no other options than to keep trying!

Hope it helps,

Freeky

[kjl]

Regarding the pain in your back foot and knee - is it possible you are counterrotating on your heelside?

I also experienced quite a lot of twisting pain in my right knee when I first switched to hardboots 2 years ago, but I realized that it was because when I turned heelside, my upper body faced the toeside edge of the board (I was used to this position from counterrotation on a flat softboot setup). It was especially bad if I skidded to a stop on my heelside - I would be facing down the hill instead of sideways to the hill.

In this position, your back knee is twisted 45 degrees inwards, which is quite painful, especially if you are getting bumped around.


Try this next time:

1) make sure on your heelside turns that you are facing the nose of the board, which is just good carving technique anyways.

2) if you skid to a stop on your heelside, make it a point to aim your chest perpenticular to the fall line, like a skiier would be standing, and not down the fall line, like a softboot snowboarder would be standing.


These two things made my knee pain go away instantly.


Hope this helps!

[drcr]

Thanks for your input kjl. I had some knee issues the first time I went hardbooting and I realized just now what you mentioned about was probably the cause.

Alex, a hardboot setup has to be just perfect for you. You may have had cant and lift issues with your friends setup not to mention stance angles. I had a hard time getting used to non-softy range angles. What I started doing that helped a lot though is that I would go downhill skateboarding (I get to go snowboarding very infrequently being in the south-east USA) in softly stance angles and slowly over time I moved to a higher angle alpine boarding stance. Over time it feel more and more natural. 45* for both feet on my AM apline my first time hardbooting then felt pretty natural and I hope to, over time, increase my angles at little more to ~50-55* depending on the board I'm riding at the time.

Simply put, higher angles takes time "working up to" as does adopting a pretty different, IMHO superior technique. It will take some time and my first few runs on hardboots were pretty wipe-out prone events, but it was definitly worth it!

DrCR

__________
Nitro Range Ex, Indy spring modded, F2 Race Titanium

[Alex56]

thanks to you all for your advices.

I am just back from my day on the snow and I am really for a couple of things I did.

First I tried lo lean forward (toward the board's nose) during my heel turn.
While I was able to make a nice and clear carve on front side turn, my heel turn was somehow skidding although I was trying over-turnig and knee flexing etc.
But as soon as I started leaning toward the board's nose ... a nice deep carve was appearing behind me ... a miracle !!

I spent all the day after this exercise, falling down as needed

A second goal was that I felt that a rear angle greater than 0° would have been of help.
Not 40°, .... may be 4° .. to start with .

Another adjustement I will do by saturday next concerns the position of my bindings: they are moved to the rear of the board that is of help in the powder but I suspect is not the best for my carving exercises.

Let's say that I am packing my luggage for my trip to the hard gear