DEELUXE + RAB + INTEC test

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DEELUXE + RAB + INTEC test

Postby rilliet » Sunday 22 February 2004, 14:04

Hi everybody,

I have just tested the step-in version of the TD2 and the DEELUXE Suzuka with their RAB spring system.

To shape the Thermoflex liners I followed the excellent instructions of http://www.yyzcanuck.com/. But I added a small modification : in order to get more room I used two toe caps.

The RAB has two pairs of springs. Of course I choosed the softer ones. I adjusted them to the minimum : just not compressed.

I noticed that, as already said on this forum, the minimum forward lean is a bit exagerated. With a 9mm drill I removed 2mm of the thread inside the inner brass part (don’t do more, otherwise there is a risk of pulling out the remaining thread).

It also seems to me that for better EC riding, the RAB should be positioned in the opposite direction, spring up, in the same way as the Northwaves. It would make the boot shorter.

The binding gets very easily adjusted to the boot sole and the opening mecanism works fine.

On the slope :

With regard to the Northwaves, It seems to me that the thermoflex liner isn’t as comfortable, but it’s OK.
On the other hand, the INTEC system shows IMHO two main problems :
1. It is lateraly much too stiff.
2. It transmits much more vibrations than with the standards bails system. The rubber heel has been replaced with a solid stiff heel that contains all the INTEC mecanism. Once locked it is physiquely stiff bounded to the binding and don’t offer any dampening. As a result all the comfort of the TD2 is lost !

Furthermore, the RAB system is much too stiff too so I can’t bend enough my knees.

All in all it means that I’m totaly stiff and that I’m not able any more to ride with my usual technique. I’m pulling like a crazy in the boots to bend them and it hurts my feet and my calves. I ride clumbsily like a beginer behind Patrice who spends most of his time sitting in the snow and waiting for me ! I also feel the cable on the side of my heel that also begins to hurt.

I get a very bad grip on icy snow because everything is vibrating and all my efforts that are wasted to bend the boots lead to decamber the board (so the tips of the edge dont touch the snow anymore). BTW my remaining forces don’t allow me to push properly on the edge during the turns.

In a word, it’s a real disaster ! I begin to understand why so many carvers are using cants and lifts. As they have no softness they have to put their feet in a position that doesn’t hurt. I also think to myself that with such a stiffness the only possible technique is the race one where the rider throws himself on the board during the turns in order to flatten all his equipment.

Back to the chalet I reinstall the standard bails and the rubber heel.

What a difference, what a comfort, what a mobility ! I get back some of my feelings except that I still can’t bent my knees enough because of the RAB. BTW I have so much loosened the spring without getting more softeness that I’m begining to think that something doesn’t work properly in this mecanism.

Back again to the chalet with Patrice we inspect the system and notice that after a short compression the two moving parts get crosswise and jam ! In comparison, the Northwaves one works perfectly.
Better than a lot of words we made a short movie (right click and save on your hard disk). The sound allows to hear the mecanical noises.

As a conclusion :
The DEELUXE shell seems to work properly and would merit a dampening system that works.
The INTEC system is totaly unsuited to our smooth style and our stance. I suppose it works with a narrow boards and high angulations. But anyway, saying that it is more comfortable than a standard bails system is wrong because what is gained during the short moments of putting on and taking off the bindings is a hundred time lost in vibrations, useless efforts and awkward movements during the rest of the time when riding.

Generally speaking the siffness of the equipment goes IMHO totaly against the freedom spirit of snowboarding. It is useless as (for myself at least) I can put much more strength on the edge with my softer equipment, that seems a kind of nonsense !

In fact I see only one advantage to the INTEC system : it is probably stronger than a bail (to be tested).

Jacques
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Postby pete » Sunday 22 February 2004, 16:24

wow the flex on the northwave is AMAZING!!! And i thought my raichles (223) were soft and flexible... :? :?
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Postby tommaso2k » Sunday 22 February 2004, 17:04

Hi Jacques,

you talk about rubber heel. When i look on the standard TD2´s bail i can´t see any rubber on it. Are you ising the ones from TD1 for the heel?

Cheers

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Postby tommaso2k » Sunday 22 February 2004, 17:18

Hi Jacques,

sorry for the stupid question. Got the answer. To much alcohol yesrterday :wink:

Tommaso
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Postby pokkis » Sunday 22 February 2004, 19:42

Jac, thanks for your report.
Please find here some comments related to that. For soft and fluent carving i totally agree that both original springs are way too stiff, as well length of thread should be increased as mentioned in many threads also here. Fo me spring with 300 Nm works well, i also selected spring with additional 20-25mm on length to get longer flex and been happy since. Originally those boot were quite tough case for me from jumping 323 Raichles whic i was allways riding on walk mode. But what one would not do to get those nice orange color boots :lol:
BTW i did not totally understand what you drilled, i extended thread by adding thread to bolt until it started curve, that was enough for me.
But clearly these boots which are stiffest race boots of Raichle are not necessary best option for EC but these can be used but it takes time to get used to them, like to new type board 8) For many people 600-series boots can be much better solution.
Intec heels, yep they will make package quite stiff, but same story here when one gets used to these they are great and precise. For me jumping from standard TD1s it was not big step but i have allways preferred stiff bindings :D
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Postby rilliet » Sunday 22 February 2004, 20:09

Hi Pokkis,

BTW i did not totally understand what you drilled, i extended thread by adding thread to bolt until it started curve, that was enough for me.

Suppressing some tread in the brass part or adding some on the bolt leads to the same result.

But clearly these boots which are stiffest race boots of Raichle

No, it's the Suzuka (the black ones), not the Indy (the orange ones).

For many people 600-series boots can be much better solution.

They are equivalent to the Suzuka.

Intec heels, yep they will make package quite stiff, but same story here when one gets used to these they are great and precise.

Yes, because your board is narrow. The lateral width of your feet is narrow too and so you don't suffer of the lack of lateral mobility of the INTEC bindings.

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Postby pokkis » Sunday 22 February 2004, 20:24

OK, sorry bout mix up with boots, i hate these new names old numbers were so much easier.
Suzukas are way flexier and softer than Indys, that's why assumed that you tested stiffer ons ie Indys. I mean there is great difference between them :D
So now i understand that you mean that these quite soft and flexy Suzukas are also too stiff 8O perhaps i need to learn ride with small angles too so i can understand issue better :lol: just kiding i'm too old and lazy to learn anything new :wink:
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Postby gdboytyler » Monday 23 February 2004, 5:32

Jacques,

Is it correct to assume that you bought the Suzuka boot without the RAB spring system and then had to install the RAB later on?

In another thread, I thought you said the shell on the Suzuka was too soft. Why didn't you get the Indy model that already had the RAB and the stiffer shell?

It sounds like you had the same problem with the RAB that CMachine had -bad glide, which locked up the RAB.

http://www.extremecarving.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=175

Did you try some lubrication to prevent the jam?
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Postby vkrouverk » Monday 23 February 2004, 7:23

The INTEC system is totaly unsuited to our smooth style and our stance. I suppose it works with a narrow boards and high angulations. But anyway, saying that it is more comfortable than a standard bails system is wrong because what is gained during the short moments of putting on and taking off the bindings is a hundred time lost in vibrations, useless efforts and awkward movements during the rest of the time when riding.


Aha, that's why I can't get smooth style and stance and carve like you: I ride Intec :D

More seriously, You tried INTEC and formed your opinion with probably stiffest bindings available on market, I'd like to see your opinion about other bindings: AFAIK, TD2 is completely from metal, only dampener/elastomer ring between board and binding is made of plastic.
On other hand, F2 Intec Titanium bindings (which I use) have plastic dampeners between fixation points on toeside and heel and rubber dampener between board and binding.


If more flexier Intecs are also too stiff for smooth riding, then I should probably ditch mine and buy conventional ones.
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Postby cmachine » Monday 23 February 2004, 8:20

gdboytyler wrote:It sounds like you had the same problem with the RAB that CMachine had -bad glide, which locked up the RAB.

http://www.extremecarving.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=175


Hi all

You are right. I hat the same problem

Using a smaller brass tube (8mm instead of 10mm) reduces this problem.
Whatch this photo:
http://www.carver.cc/gallery/photo.php?photo=609&exhibition=3

Olaf

PS: I'll try to send a video this evening that shows how the boot works with my modifications. I guess it's not as good as the point900 but much better than the original
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Postby harald » Monday 23 February 2004, 10:25

Thanks for a very good and instructive report. Now I understand better how my own boots (UPS RSV Mach work), so I will go home, make the same bending tests as in the little movie and adjust the springs. Maybe I should also try to ride with the devices that can fix the forward lean open. As I am used to ride very hard racing ski boots, for maximum control and the local conditions often are very icy, I have been looking for the hard feel of the snowboard boots to in order to transmit the leg forces directly to the board in order to make it grip on ice. For EC technique this approach seems to be wrong. If I notice any difference for my riding I will let you know.
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Postby tommaso2k » Monday 23 February 2004, 16:55

Hi,

what is the others experience with TD2 INTEC system in regards to their lateral stiffness. Would you agree to Jacques impression? What are the general experiences with step-in INTEC systems for their stiffness compare to a standard bail systems?

Greets

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Postby cmachine » Monday 23 February 2004, 19:15

Hi

As promised the video clip.

RIGHT CLICK AND SAVE THE CLIP (4Mbyte):

http://www.carver.cc/clips/spring_system_clip.avi


It works much better than the original RAB, but it's still far away from the nothwave!

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Postby rilliet » Monday 23 February 2004, 21:32

Is it correct to assume that you bought the Suzuka boot without the RAB spring system and then had to install the RAB later on?

Yes, but I haven't tried the boot with the original mecanism.

In another thread, I thought you said the shell on the Suzuka was too soft.

Ah? I can't remember... The only experience I had was two easy slope with the AF600 (Suzuka equivalent) of Audacium. The shell was softer than on my Northwaves but not too soft.

The shell of my Suzukas are also a little bit softer that is IMHO very good.

It sounds like you had the same problem with the RAB that CMachine had -bad glide, which locked up the RAB.

Yes but it is not a problem of gliding or lubricant. It's a fondamental mecanical problem.

Did you try some lubrication to prevent the jam?

No because it is useless.

You tried INTEC and formed your opinion with probably stiffest bindings available on market

Yes, you are right.

F2 Intec Titanium bindings (which I use) have plastic dampeners between fixation points on toeside and heel and rubber dampener between board and binding.

It seems that F2 noticed the same problem as me and tried to correct it.
In Zinal, a German guy (Frank) had these ones and told me he had already broken one base plate. But as I didn't tried them, I don't know how they work.

You are right. I hat the same problem
Using a smaller brass tube (8mm instead of 10mm) reduces this problem.

On your movie one can see that your solution works much better than the original setup. But the spring can't still be totaly compressed. :wall:

Jacques
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Postby pokkis » Monday 23 February 2004, 21:45

Stiffest Intec is Catek INtec anyway :D not TD2 which is semi stiff :D
Another point is that i see good point that Olofs great film does not show spring to go all the way, there should allways be some reserve to be used :D Please note that these clips all not totally comparable, some are fulmed with differnt forces, some with feet in some as simulated case without inner boot.
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