Counterrotation vs Neutral Postion (Attention large Pictures

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Counterrotation vs Neutral Postion (Attention large Pictures

Postby Felix » Thursday 15 November 2007, 0:47

Hello Everyone, after the recent discussions about counter-rotation I just wanted to post some pics showing proper and bad counter-rotation as well as really good race technique. Fact is counterrotation with upper body is not bad and sometimes needed, counterrotation with the hips is nearly allways bad. I will add real race technique pics later showing very modern technique and good to look at, as I first have to ask for permission by the racer from my club who is found on the pics. I will then add a complete set (one turn FS - 6 photos, one turn BS 6 shots) of fotos of how modern race technique should look like in natural position (neutral position) with neither counterrotation nor rotation.

Notice: All professional racers are in natural position at the hips. It's only the upper body that is counterrotated. Counterrotation with the hips (as shown in the pics of me) is mostly undesireable for racing, counterrotation with the upper body is perfectly allright - though a natural position would be better. Rotation as for extremecarving makes an unstable position with no more possibility to react and should therefore also be avoided.

For racing at all cost the ride must be stable as race courses are mostly really rutted (a beat up piste in the afternoon is nothing against a racecourse) with deep holes around the gates and really bumpy if you don't get the right track as the people before you. To win a race you have to complete 10 runs without crashing (well you can crash in the first run of a final but if your opponent doesn't crash your normally out). To be fast is the second goal. Therefore race technique is great for every condition and slope as you can allways use it to securely carve down somewhere. (i.e. bad vision, bumpy etc.... where extremecarving technique or freecarving styles would be mostly inadequate).

When responding here, or posting your opinion about the technique of a photo, please don't repost the image (thread will become too long) but just write down the Number (for Frontside) or the Letter (for Backside).

Frontside Collection:

1: Here is a nice picture from Gilles Jacquet (taken from his homepage)- where you can see proper frontside with counterrotation on the UPPER BODY, but NOT with the Hips which are in Natural Position. This is all fine. Notice how low and compact he is. From this position no hole or bump can get him down. Pay attention how low he gets at his front leg. This is important to compare to pics with wrong technique. Problem on the Frontside are nearly allways because the front leg is too stretched out!
Image


2. This on the other hand is how a Frontside with counterrotation should not look like at all (counterrotation with the hips), the problem is that the front leg is really straight and there is not enough direction made with the front leg. Therefore the board does not angulate on the slope, the radius driven is far too large, the board might even be drifting and not even carving a clean ark. To remedy the situation I would (simply) need to angulate my front leg too and drive it a bit into the snow, this would then also decrease the counterrotation (picture taken by Frunobulax):
Image

3. This is how such a bad technique looks from the front. Its about the same mistake, just not as exxagerated as in image 2.
Image




Backside Collection:
A: Showing how it should look like. Natural Position, Sigi Grabner
Image

B: Not so well, but still very good, Rider is Amelie Kober, The upper bottom is not completely down, and the upper body is lent still slightly forward. It's NOT a counterrotated position but natural (hips and upper body facing the same direction as the boots). More foreward lean in the upper body would be desireable, it's a bit similar technique to picture C afterwards, just without the counterrotation in the hips as in C:
Image

C: Good technique even though counterrotated at the hips, upper body is oriented allright. I can react to any bumps or holes riding like this. i could move and rotate my hip a bit though which would in turn allow for an even shorter radius.
Image

D: O.k. technique: Uh - I finally have to show that I'm not all crap when it comes to technique. Slight Counterrotation in the upper body only, but not in the hips, but acceptable and I will be able to react to all unknown circumstances.
Image

E: Strong Counterrotation, The main problem however is that the front leg is too straight and not bent. I entered the turn too agressively (for those who think I crashed, actually the image D, right above was taken in the same second, just a bit later according to Exif information from the camera. So I corrected my mistake directly afterwards. Look at the too colored points. They show where my hip is (light green) and (darker green) where my hip would ideally be.
Image

F: Now to Very Bad Technique on Backside. Counter-Rotated, but not only. The real problem is that the hip is moved forward and too low. This position is not stable at all if there is a hole in the course, for bumps I could succeed in not falling but any hole will have me sitting on my bottom. This is the worst position possible, many newbies on plates ride like this. Lines are drawn to show incorrect. On German on would have every right to call this "Kackstuhl" (red) and correct (green) position.
Image

G: Sequence of Race technique from my part, includes picture C,D,E, - just too get an overview. Nice sequence showing really proper race technique still to be uploaded if I get permission.
Image

Credit for the Photos:
1. Showing me --> They were taken from the EC-meeting by Vahur Krouverk.
2. Showing Dominik Leichtfried taken by Jörg Bonner

So Here is the Photo Sequence from Dominik Leichtfried (you can look up his FIS record to get an idea of his racing - though I'm sure he's better than his actual position. I wish him luck for the next races in Kühtai). Please note that this is a very easy course up on Kitzsteinhorn glacier. I chose theese photos as they show very clean technique and not ultimate speed or anything. They just show how to race really good. Notice on how he compresses his body. At the start of the turn till the middle his legs are only slightly flexed. This saves power while still allowing to react to anything that might come up. Then in the last third of the turn he is very low, just before very quickly pushing through both of his legs to change edges and to gather speed. This is how it should be done.
First
Image

Second:
Image

Third:
Image

Fourth:
Image

Fifth:
Image

Sixth:
Image


And Now for the Frontside Collection: - Naming from Eleventh upwwards so not to get any confusion.
Eleventh
Image

Twelvth
Image

Thirteenth:
Image

Forteenth:
Image

Fifteenth:
Image

Sixteenth:
Image

Seventeenth:
Image
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Postby Vitaly » Thursday 15 November 2007, 4:48

I only wish to tell, that sports riding is not similar in any way on carving riding.
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Postby vkrouverk » Thursday 15 November 2007, 7:54

M. Cirigliano published recently book, discussing modern racing technique (neutral non-rotated position) among other things with number of pics and image sequences.
http://www.snowsportmoves.com/book.html
A bit pricey shipping costs to Europe (though with current USD rate it's not too much), but I'd suggest it to riders, interested in racing technique (and carving overall).
And before you ask: no, I don't get cut from sales (though couple of my image sequences from "lifted" are in this book) :D
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Wow

Postby Hans » Thursday 15 November 2007, 10:19

Very nice Felix, and also the arguments you use to lighten up the pics are very useful to me. I just can see what i do wrong in my backside. Too much pushing my hips to the front... :oops:

Do you have some (training)tips to get this hipthing out of my system?
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Postby Pogokoenig » Thursday 15 November 2007, 10:57

Hans, Would you like to achieve a racing-style or a carving-style?

Completely different things.
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Styles

Postby Hans » Thursday 15 November 2007, 11:07

Pogokoenig wrote:Hans, Would you like to achieve a racing-style or a carving-style?

Completely different things.

............... I am just not so into styles. The only style I've read till so far is the swiss rotationtechnique at the SWOARDsite. What's the difference between a carving and a racingbackside?

My only puprpose is to make a backside with my hips in a neutral position.
I am not that young but never too old to learn and I am somewhat stiff in the hips. I always tend to push my hips in front rather than pushing my upperbody??? So may be you can help me out.
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Re: Styles

Postby Pogokoenig » Thursday 15 November 2007, 11:19

Hans wrote:
Pogokoenig wrote:Hans, Would you like to achieve a racing-style or a carving-style?

Completely different things.

............... I am just not so into styles. The only style I've read till so far is the swiss rotationtechnique at the SWOARDsite. What's the difference between a carving and a racingbackside?

My only puprpose is to make a backside with my hips in a neutral position.
I am not that young but never too old to learn and I am somewhat stiff in the hips. I always tend to push my hips in front rather than pushing my upperbody??? So may be you can help me out.

Now It's getting complicated. Let us ride togther in one of the session and we will see, what we can do with your hips.
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Postby Felix » Thursday 15 November 2007, 11:22

@Hans, too find out about that mistakes I do have to thanks my coaches and videos shot during training sessions. Then my coach asked me to stand like this without a board, Uhh awfull. Impossible to ballance out in any way. I have even better pictures from someone in a racesuit, but will not post them as it would be unfair to the rider on the pics.

While riding I didn't really notice how awful this position really is but when we analysed the pictures it summed up. Quite a few raceboarders have that problem on backside. When entering a turn I always thought that I needed more pressure on the tip of the board, therefore I moved my hip forward and counterrotated with it to get more pressure on the board. I think I got this mistake by riding too hard (flex) snowboards and skiracing. As I transferred my snowboarding technique to skis, I also got influenced the other way around. Bending on a snowboard like on the skis will then lead even more to that hip problem.

To get rid of it - some techniques from my coaches: relearning something is often the most difficult. I think the best way is to push your front knee into the snow while trying to lift up your but and keep it out of the snow. The worst is trying to touch the snow with your bottom as this will let your hip drop forward and down. Another possibility is to place your hands on your but, and then ride or driving your front knee into the snow with your back hand. Have someone monitoring you to get the corrections dialed in.

I'm still sometimes suffering from this problem, but it got much better after training. On Softboot carving I don't have that problem - actually never had.

@Vahur, thanks for the book, looks very interesting. Most teaching books are very small on technique and don't explain how to remedy not so common riding mistakes.
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Postby vkrouverk » Thursday 15 November 2007, 12:34

Felix, don't get your hopes too high concerning this book though, as it is what it says in title: "fundamentals". Thus if you looking for deep technique discussion and common mistakes explanation, then it's not there. Just basic details about body mechanics and carving techniques. As I see it, it's just a 101 book, discussing everything about carving. For novices (like me) in carving it contains something to read and learn, but for someone who had racing courses it's probably just complementary at best.
This thread started "from the middle", as continuation of other thread and for people, who do not know "modern" racing technique basics, it's probably little bit hard to follow such detailed discussion. I'd recommend this book for such people. And if I'm not mistaken, then it's the only book available, discussing carving to such extent (other snowboard books what I've seen are even more shallow on body position and carving techniques), so it's probably worth to have.
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Postby pokkis » Thursday 15 November 2007, 12:44

I would also recommend this book, as Vahur stated, not perhaps much for experienced and dedicated racers, but for rest of mortals like me there is plenty good reading. And, hey, anyway this is only book of this subject.
I must agree that some stuff in book i dont fully agree (me stuborn?) but there is plenty good stuf to read and learn.
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Postby Felix » Thursday 15 November 2007, 12:53

@Pokkis, as you're a bit into racing too, what do you say to my above analysis, is it correct in your opinion too? I'ld like to hear your opinion on it as you have great knowledge about snowboarding I believe.

One goal for me to post this picture collection is to show that racing technique is not so far away from freecarving or even extremecarving as many people think. Counterrotation is often much worse with most aspiring carvers than with racers. I'm still waiting for the last picture set which i really want to publish but had no respone yet (and I know the racer is leaving for training session this weekend soon). It shows technique just like taken directly from a teaching book for racing and similarities to frecarving technique are much easier to see.
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Serious topic

Postby Hans » Thursday 15 November 2007, 14:17

This is gonna be a serious topic. Thanks very much for solving me that backsideproblem. Some tips are always usefull.
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Postby frunobulax » Thursday 15 November 2007, 14:29

Hey Felix.. the second picture reminds me of something :lol: you didn't ask me for the copyright, did you :wink: ?
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Postby Felix » Thursday 15 November 2007, 15:00

Hi Gerry!
Wait- the copyright belongs to my (now broken) far too slow camera that didn't shoot when the button was pushed.... doesn't it??? :D
It's about the worst picture of my riding technique ever shot. Besides: I still think the Hochkar is amongst the best places to carve - especially as they added a slope which is steeper and wider than any when we've been there together (Häsing Steilhang). Oh and still very few people.
P.S. I ask people on the photograph for copyright, that seems more appropriate to me.
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Postby frunobulax » Thursday 15 November 2007, 15:19

You sure? I think we did the Häsing Steilhang couple of times at the very beginning. But I may be wrong.

Hochkar is fine, yes. But this weekend I'll have a look at the crowded Dachstein-West pists, maybe Hinterstoder too. 8) :D
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