springs for Northwave boots

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springs for Northwave boots

Postby drzone » Wednesday 5 March 2003, 21:05

Just wondering what those grey, blue and grey springs were on your Northwave boots, also WHERE DID YOU BUY THE SPRINGS?
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Postby skywalker » Sunday 9 March 2003, 12:08

Your boots also seem to have more forward lean? an You tell us, how long the springs are? Thank You!!

Tom
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Postby rcrobar » Friday 4 April 2003, 7:39

Hi

Here are the dimensions and specs of the NorthWave and RAB springs. I was lucky enough to locate a pair this season.

The grey spring that J&P have used in the NorthWave spring modification is A LOT softer then the compression of the blue NW spring.

I have found the web site www.associatedspring.com very helpful.


YELLOW - NorthWave Spring (Stock on Point 900)

Free Length = 25 mm
Compressed Length = 19 mm
ID (Inside Diameter) = 8.43 mm
OD (Outside Diameter) = 15.65mm
Wire Diameter (Thickness) = 2.75 mm
170 Foot Pounds/76 Kilos - When completely compressed.
6 coils
www.asraymond.com/media/ASRaymond_ISO_Springs.pdf
Raymond ISO Die springs Catalog Number 206-304 (yellow)


BLUE - NorthWave Spring (Stock on Point 900)

Free Length = 36.75 mm
Compressed Length = 20.62 mm
ID (Inside Diameter) = 9.02 mm
OD (Outside Diameter) = 15.65mm
Wire Diameter (Thickness) = 1.97 mm
140 Foot Pounds/63 Kilos - When completely compressed.
9 coils
www.asraymond.com/media/ASRaymond_ISO_Springs.pdf
Raymond ISO Die springs Catalog Number 204-306 (blue)

Material - rectangular wire with rounded corners.
Direction of Helix-Right hand.
The springs fit over an 8mm rod/shaft on NorthWave spring system.
End have been squared and ground



Raichle RAB Spring (silver)

Free Length = 37 mm
Compressed Length = 22.22 mm
ID (Inside Diameter) = 13.5 mm
OD (Outside Diameter) = 20.57mm
Wire Diameter = 3.59 mm
210 Foot Pounds/95 Kilos
6 coils
Material - round wire
Direction of Helix-Right hand.
End have been squared and ground

Rob
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modified springs at northwave boots.

Postby skywalker » Sunday 21 December 2003, 15:48

Hi Rob,

maybe Joe or J&P can help me, too. I have a pair of the northwave point 900 and would like to change the spring. So my question to you is: Which kind of spring do you use, what are the specifications and where did you buy them. Last point is especially for Joe, because buying them in Germany might be much easier than getting some from the US ore anywhere else in the world. Thanks for your help!!!

Tom
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Cutting NorthWave springs

Postby rcrobar » Monday 22 December 2003, 1:38

Hello Tom

To make the spring modifications to my NW Point 900 boots I simply duplicated the picture that Patrice was good enough to provide of his boots/spring set up. I can’t remember which thread it was under, but a very good close up picture is provide.

Here is what Patrice/Jacques showed me via their picture and posts, thanks again to J&P!!

Both yellow springs have to be cut, count the coils in Patrices’ picture to determine where to cut the springs. The approximate yellow spring cut is 1/3 and 2/3. The smaller 1/3 piece goes below the metal bar and is for the backward boot motion. The 2/3 piece goes just above the metal bar and is for the forward motion.

Only ONE blue spring needs to be cut, keep the second blue spring as a spare. Cut the blue spring in 1/2. Half of the blue spring goes on the left boot, the other half goes on the right.

The grey spring does not have to be any specific stiffness. The idea is to get a very soft spring, that can be easily compressed between your thumb and finger. The grey spring is over 3 cm long and compresses down to just under one cm. Fewer coils that allows for a lot of travel/compression is the goal. This may not seem like a lot movement, but when you flex your boot forward on it really gives you a free feeling.

The grey springs make is easy for the rider to bend the knees and ankles. When riding a board that is wide at the waist the ankle movement makes it possible to move your hips forward and backward over the toe and heel side edge of a wider board; when push-pulling with lower stance angles.

The blue and yellow springs do not compress until a very hard impact on the ankle is taken. This is when the VERY hard NW shell act as a foundation for the progressive flex of the stiff medium-blue and hard-yellow springs.

The combined length of the cut yellow + cut blue spring is shorter than the one un-cut blue spring. Because this length is shorter you gain more travel in the super soft grey spring. When the VERY, VERY bottom yellow spring, the really small cut yellow spring (1/3) for the backward motion, is installed, the metal tube that the springs ride on sticks UP much higher on the back of your calf. This creates enough room to stack the grey, blue and yellow spring. If you look closely at the back of Patrices boot you will notice some plastic needs to be removed on the lowest back part of the upper boot cuff. Because much more forward ankle movement is created, the spring mechanism hits one small spot on the upper cuff.

Making this modification is definitely worth the effort, so I hope this helps!

Rob
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Re: Cutting NorthWave springs

Postby fivat » Monday 22 December 2003, 10:03

rcrobar wrote:To make the spring modifications to my NW Point 900 boots I simply duplicated the picture that Patrice was good enough to provide of his boots/spring set up. I can’t remember which thread it was under, but a very good close up picture is provide.

It was in a French thread:
http://www.extremecarving.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=394
and here is the picture:
Image

Patrice Fivat
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THNX!!!

Postby skywalker » Monday 22 December 2003, 16:13

Hi Rob & Patrice,

Thanks a lot for your help. Of course, I've got some more questions (It wasn't me, if there were no questions left):

-Why does one need so much forward travel?? Ore otherwise, why did you change the distribution between forward and backward lean?? You're boots have hardly any forward lean, do they? I ask, because my ankle is bent to the max in my 900s with my forward lean and the springs completely compressed. So your soft spring travel might be similar to my forward lean?!

-The yellow spring might hardly ever bee moved at all. Even the blue one is rather stiff, i think, so it's a kind of hardcore-suspension to soften hits to your legs???

-Why is there so little backward travel? Did you have no more springs or is it unneccessary (is this word correct as I wrote it?? Quite funny writing every consonant two times :think: )?

-I guess the grey spring makes funny noise when bent?! Is there no soft spring with that flat wire available?? :wink:

-I know, you don't like these questions, Jacques, but I'm just thinking: What is all this like with higher binding angles? I think, I need the flexion of the ankles as well to move up and down?????

So thank you once more for answering all these stupid questions. I will have some free days without snowboarding before the ECS, so that's the right time to work on my equipment ;)))
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Spring Questions

Postby rcrobar » Monday 22 December 2003, 22:32

Hi Tom

I’ll do my best to try answer your questions, but take them with grain of salt as I am enthusiastic and fairly experienced ... but not an expert. J&P will jump in and straighten us out when we make too many mistakes here :D


Why does one need so much forward travel?? You're boots have hardly any forward lean, do they?


The legs are bent very differently during the transition between turns and during the actual turn. This is why a boot with more movement and flex is key. The movement of the spring while using the RAB or the Northwave spring systems (AFTER they are modified) allows the rider to bend the knee so that their is a lot of forward lean, but at the same time allows you to straighten your leg up so that their is little forward lean. The movement of the spring system does not force the rider to pick a predetermined lean setting. So it is not a matter of liking or not liking forward lean, it’s more how the boots are able to move at different points during the turn. I tried both the stock RAB and Northwave spring systems (stock), I personally found both of them too stiff, causing them to restrict the movement needed for the surf style push-pull.

What is all this like with higher binding angles? I think, I need the flexion of the ankles as well to move up and down?????


Many Raichle boot users ride with the block and lock mechanism in the walk mode to get the freedom they are after. The walk mode forward travel also permits this freedom to move. Having high or moderate stance angles makes no difference. The only draw back to the walk mode is that it does not help your ankle stop a hard impact as much. Also don’t forget that the same heavy springs that stopped the impact now assist your ankles during the pushing motion.

I ask, because my ankle is bent to the max in my 900s with my forward lean and the springs completely compressed. So your soft spring travel might be similar to my forward lean?!


Set the forward lean,which is actually a setting that determines how much you can straighten your legs, so that it does not cause your legs to burn out quickly. The springs take care of the forward motion.

Ore otherwise, why did you change the distribution between forward and backward lean??Why is there so little backward travel? Did you have no more springs or is it unnecessary (is this word correct as I wrote it?? Quite funny writing every consonant two times )?


A large amount of movement for the backward lean isn’t needed to perform a turn. The Raichle RAB system has no springs system for the backward motion, the brass ring slams into a metal stop. The softer Rachlie boot shell takes the impact, while the harder Northwave shell needs the spring to help take the hits. Speed is also a technical parameter in ECing; because being the fastest guy is not the goal, the smaller spring is enough to absorb the impacts at the relatively fast speed when compared to a racer charging very fast into a gate for a hard turn.

The yellow spring might hardly ever bee moved at all. Even the blue one is rather stiff, i think, so it's a kind of hardcore-suspension to soften hits to your legs???


When your ankle does take a hard shot, it is amazing how the hard shell of the NW boot combined with the heavy yellow and blue springs take the impact and gives you a feeling of confidence. If you have access to more springs, perhaps a better match between spring tension and the riders weight could be made.

I guess the grey spring makes funny noise when bent?! Is there no soft spring with that flat wire available??


It is tough to find the perfect flat wire spring. I did find a very soft flat wire spring that was 10cm long, but would have to buy 10 of them as a minimum purchase and I would still have to cut it to get the 3 cm portion. The grey spring works great, so I was cheap and didn’t buy the flat wire type.

Ok .... this must be close to a record for the longest post award! :wink:

I hope I am helping here
Rob
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Postby joe » Tuesday 23 December 2003, 7:53

Hi Tom,

i bought my springs online at http://www.gutekunst-co.com/.

Just put in the specs (e.g. diameter, length, max. force) of the springs and you´ll be able to choose from many different type of springs.

Joe
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thnx again ;)

Postby skywalker » Tuesday 23 December 2003, 13:18

Hi Joe,

nice to hear from you! And thanks at first for the two test-rides with the swoard ;). It was very nice to meet you! I've found gutekunst already yesterday. The site is great. I will analyze the springs of the northwave boots and then choose some possible springs. I was just a little bit caucious abaout the big changes made at the boots, maybe somebody thought something when building them ;).

@ Rob: Thanks a lot, my questions are almost answered by now. I think now the time to test has come...
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Postby sorro » Tuesday 23 December 2003, 21:44

Thanks for the web site Joe. 8)

I have bought some springs on-line. I hope I will receive them fast!
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Northwave Springs

Postby rcrobar » Saturday 13 March 2004, 20:06

Hi

Hans, and in the past Peter Vu, and I have had a very good exchange of e-mails. We have been discussing our Northwave boots and the spring modification. We felt our discussions, between the three apprentices, might help others.

The first time I used my Northwave boots, I also was using my Swoard and TD1’s for the first time. My impression of the blue NW springs was that they were too stiff. Looking back at this a season and a half later, I realize that I changed so many variables in my set up (boots, board & bindings!) that I probably misinterpreted my spring stiffness assessment. Here is why...

After countless changes to my set up , stance angles, width, etc. (my wife thinks I have gone crazy with all the jumping around on the carpet :lol: ), I now realize a few mistakes I made. My stance was too wide and my angles were a bit too high. When setting up my gear in the house (FLAT on the floor), I put VERY little forward lean on my NW boots (I also did not change the NW canting adjustment, I am bow legged). I now feel I compensated for a wide and flat stance with almost no forward lean, my thighs were on fire if I added more lean. When actually riding on snow it was difficult to compress the springs at slower speeds. The very small amount of forward lean setting was a big part of this feeling.

After making the modification pictured above, the larger and easier range of motion in the knees and ankles was perfect. But ... When riding rock hard ice, the force was so much greater on my legs, when compared to soft snow. My calf muscles were sometimes stiff and sore 2 days after riding on ice. As this season progressed, especially on hard snow days, I found that I had to tightening the top two straps of my NW boots more and more, to get enough support. It got to the point where that they so tight it was getting uncomfortable!

Previous to this Jacques, who happens to weigh about the same as me (I weigh 84Kg), told me that he made the modification to his boots when he was a much lighter (probably single at the time :lol: ) guy. Married life and good cooking have add some weight to many of us, and now he found his modification too soft. He decided to exchange the soft grey and cut blue spring with a full length stock NW blue spring (Note-Some of the NW Point 900’s come with a red and yellow spring, I THINK the red is a bit stiffer than the blue), which is stacked on top of the cut yellow spring. At the time I didn’t think much of this, I liked the softer grey spring.

After a few days of really sore calf muscles and tight boots straps, I decided to replace the soft grey spring with the original blue spring. It was a BIG improvement, I was able to get the same support and MOVEMENT without having to do my boots up so tight. I was still able to bend my legs at all speeds. The narrower stance, increased forward lean, a new boot cant setting and using the SOFTER feeling TD2’s with the yellow E-Ring changed everything!

The conclusion that the apprentices have arrived at is if you are a lighter rider make the same modification as Patrices’ picture above; to your NW boots. If you are a heavier rider, cutting only the yellow spring and restacking them with the stock blue is perhaps a better option. Also, when setting up your equipment by testing on the carpet, roll up two towels and place them under the tip and tail of your board (When your wife is not around :lol: ). Doing this simulates the natural canting you get when a board is bent during a carve. Next finish your adjustments while actually riding on the snow. If you are a hardbooter you know what a huge difference a degree here and a cm there can make in the feel of your ride, it all takes time.

I hope this helps.
Rob
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Postby Hans » Sunday 14 March 2004, 20:41

Thanks, Rob
For the extended answere.

Greets, Hans :wink:
Virus Interceptor, Nightmare, Black Death, JJ Cypress, Pogo Longboard 175, Virus UPZ RC10/DGSS
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Postby drzone » Sunday 14 March 2004, 21:35

A note about the Northwave tongue I noticed. I weigh 130lbs/60kg and use Patrice's mod (except new spring at the bottom and kept the plastic cover heavily cut so not to catch the springs...mainly for cosmetic reasons).
I often ride below 10C, more like -15 up to -20c at times, and the Northwave blue tongue gets very stiff for my weight at those temperature. I since switched to some old Raichle grey tongue that stays much softer at those temperature and let the springs do the work as they are not as temperature dependant.
Patrice also cut out a little tab at the crease of the Northwave blue tongue to make the tongue softer.
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Northwave spring system?

Postby shaggy » Sunday 29 August 2004, 2:08

Would it be possible to put the Northwave spring system on an Indy with midification? If so where could I get a pair? Thanks!

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