System springs & walk-mode

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System springs & walk-mode

Postby SITO » Thursday 26 January 2006, 22:48

Hi Guys!

I would like to open a little debate or listen your opinion about the different sistem using on the back of the boots.
Always I used my old 124 raichle boots on walk-mode and yesterday I put on it a sistem spring. Well this is my poor review.

Today I have gone riding to a dry-snow resort near Madrid and I have tested the difference between the boots spring and walk-mode sistem on my 124 Raichle .

I am of oppinion that the walk-mode is the same as spring but the latter might not work quite as well.
The reason is that using soft springs I get the same feeling as when using the walk mode, given that with both sistems I can bend the boots with the same facility on bendings my knees,the one difference I have noticed is that with the springs system my legs are blocked on mountain the rail as the springs hamber my legs mobility,This doesn't happened with the walk-mode .
This applies with you are doing 360 or 180 jump and specially riding on switch.
Only the sistem springs improve my back and frontside lay down turn. It was more clean.
Well this was my feeling riding with my gear in different snowboard styles.Not only race or EC style.


Over to you!

Sito
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Re: System springs & walk-mode

Postby skywalker » Friday 27 January 2006, 10:53

Hi Sito,

as you might guess, I have a slighltly different opinion. My suggestion to you is: We will have some further discussion on a real life test in Zinal. You testride a stiff tongue, a soft tongue, a linear spring mechanism and a progressive spring mechanism. I'm pretty sure, your result will be the same as mine ;)

About theory: You might want a "soft" boot, that provides enough flexibility for your moves on the board. A hardboot with a soft shell like your 124 enables your moves, but does not provide much ancle support. Some people don't care about, but many snowboarders need this to feel o.k.. So on the other hand to have best ancle support, we want a shell as stiff as possible (not to mention leteral flex, but maybe this happens rather between binding and boot).

So in my eyes a solution should look like this: Stiff shell, soft tongue (maybe needs to be modified, more about this within the next week). Then add a sufficient spring mechanism to allow weight transfer in any direction you need but also offer enough support to your ancle on powerfully carved turns. I have to admit, that very soft boot shells may work better with a very soft spring or maybe e soft tongue working as spring.

In the configuration, you described, the tongue of your boots does the "spring" work. If it's one of Raichle's soft tongues, the result might be totally o.k. for you. But maybe only within a narrow temprature range, as the plstics changes it's stiffness remarcably with changing temperature. The experience of my NWs getting totally stiff in -20° in Zinal last ECS made me change their tongues and the spring setup. After all I'm sure, a well adapted set of springs works much better than the control by the boot's tongue. But for sure there are also conditions, where Raichles in walk mode work better than with a standard Spring.

These are only my thoughts today. My opinion may change or simply be wrong. I', looking forward to some boot / tongue / spring testing in Zinal with you, Sito.

Best regards

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Postby Arnaud » Friday 27 January 2006, 11:37

I totally agree with Skywalker.
I think Raichle 124 is not a good boot to test spring system because the shell stifness is less than the spring system. Flex of the boot is not controlled by a rotation around ankle axis, but by plastic deformation. See below on the picture how the stiffness is depending of the temperature. Material is an elastomeric polyester with medium hardness (55 Shore D). Maybe not the exact material use on 124 boots but something similar.

A good boot must have stiff shell to preserve ankle injury, but a free rotation around ankle axis, not depending of temperature. Then the spring system allows fine setting and flex control. note also that generally stiffer plastic is less dependant of temperature

I will try to make a short vid' with my modified Head Stratos.

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Postby SITO » Friday 27 January 2006, 16:29

Hi Tom,&Arnaud. :wink:

Yes Tom, the Raichles have the soft tongues which work like springs. And Arnaud , I'm agree with you, this Raichles perhaps not will be the better ones to test a system springs on them, because they are soft. But I rode on this boots during one year and they was the better reference point to test both system.

And repeat , I am totally agree with both of you in your arguments, but the feelings and my thoughts getting yesterday were differents.

I remember that this 124s worked fine during the cold 2005 EC on walk mode. I didn't had a system spring for them in these days, and also I remember ,that there was people whom had problems with their boots by the low temperatures, because their boots were stiff itself, and much more with this lowest temperatures.

So my doubt isn't about the stiffnes of the boots, and their back sistem for riding on a specific snowboard style, which we can say EC, carving or race.

:arrow: My concern is about what would be better, ride on a medium stiffnes boots on walk mode (so you can ride all types terrain like powder, snowpark, EC ,carving, race, jumps, switch) with more freedom movements,and less effort for your legs muscles for bending your boots and knees even though you have a bit less ankle support?

:arrow: Or get some stiffer boots(for adding more support ankle, and more powerful turn) with system spring, adapted only for doing EC, carving or race making several changes, like soft, medium, and hard tongues, in combination with different springs (soft, medium, hard )as their different lenght for getting an apropiate forward lean?

:wink: Sito


P.S: As what I said at the fist on my post, my thoughts were the same as yours,until I rode with both sistems in the same pair boots, and it's for this because I haven't a clear idea on my mind which two options allow me to ride my board in all situations.
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Postby Arnaud » Friday 27 January 2006, 17:29

sito wrote:but the feelings and my thoughts getting yesterday were differents.

Fortunately, everyone rides following its own feeling ...

sito wrote :
1 - ride on a medium stiffnes boots on walk mode
or
2 - Or get some stiffer boots with system spring

I think you should have the same behaviour, but without any setting in the first case.
Stiffer boots don't means they are harder to bend ! Yes, plastic shell is stiffer, but with a proper design / customization, rotation around ankle axis is totally free without liner and springs. NW and customized HSP have both this behaviour.
So they are not "adapted only for doing EC, carving or race"/. With a proper setting of spring you should be able to find the same feeling than in Raichle 124.
I own also an old pair of Raichle 124. They are much more difficult to bend than my Head, even at room temperature !

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Postby István » Friday 27 January 2006, 17:30

I volunteer for the testing experience in Zinal. I do not have any experience with the magic NWs, but have some with softer hardboots from the past and the stiff Indy from the last 2 seasons with the original (more or less useless) spring mechanism.

As a test pilot I'll be a good reference to judge the difference between a very stiff setup (Indy with original spring mechanism) and the new product of Skywalker.

Now all we need is great conditions in Zinal.... ;-)


Bye,

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Postby SITO » Friday 27 January 2006, 19:57

Arnaud wrote:Yes, plastic shell is stiffer, but with a proper design / customization, rotation around ankle axis is totally free without liner and springs. NW and customized HSP have both this behaviour.

Ooohpps!
This convinced me!,
The next day, I'll try to put both sistem on my old AF 600(the only problem is that they are size 26 and my size is 25.5) and I'll test them in the same conditions, mountain on rails, jumping, and doing some lay-down turn, so I will compare between both systems putting them on the same stiffer boots.

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