Wide board tendancy?

[fivat]

An interesting discussion has appeared in another thread (click here) (whose subject was different):

Next seasons some brands (Virus, F2?, ...) will make wider boards than the ones they were making until now. They follow the trend initiated by Extremecarving.com and SWOARD

These are excellent news, because this is exactly what we hoped! Our Manifesto (click here) written exactly two years ago defended some values that we felt important and condemned certain trends that, in our opinion, took alpine snowboarding on the wrong evolution path. This sport had almost vanished...

I don't worry about an eventual rivalry because:

1) It's positive for the customers: we will see new models, new boards that will attract more people in soft boots and make them switch to hard boots.
2) It took 10 years to develop the ATC Matrix (click here)!
3) It will be very expensive to imitate the ATC Matrix performances (reason: read next point )
4) It's "easy" to make a narrow board that has a good grip, but it's a real challenge to make a wide board with an excellent grip!
The reason is the control (and distribution!) of the torsion stiffness. If you consider a ski for example, the narrowness gives naturally high torsion stiffness. The problem becomes much more complex on a board. Using tri-directional fibre is then important... but not enough! Making a board that carves like on a rail is an art that my friend (and idol ) Jacques Rilliet has mastered by inventing a way to distribute adequately the torsion stiffness.
5) The SWOARD you can order are the exact replicas of the prototypes! The SWOARD team uses those boards! Note that most other brands make special boards for their riders...
6) The adjustment of flex for the weight of the rider, resulting in 9 models for the SWOARD, is unique in the world.

Point 4) is the most important I think!

Patrice Fivat

[GrimReaper]

But the interestign point remains how to confince people about the quality of a swoard. You just don't have dealers or as many demo locations.
Making the best product for the right price doesn't mean you are going to sell it.

But things like the extreem carving sesions are very good for this sort of thing. As is all the positive feedback.

[vkrouverk]

In Carving Session @ Aspen I discussed with Jörg Egli (leader of Pureboarding) and he was quite confident that in near future we see more wider carving boards, so I guess that he shares more or less same ideas, as you (after all, he is also from Switzerland:). And #one board which he rides is also wider than most of boards.
Some have expressed fear, that if big names will start to make wider boards, then Swoard may vanish. IMO it will not be so: Swoard is product of passion and its production is from desire to share this passion with others (as opposed to large companies, which main target is to produce income for shareholders). So as long and this competition remains fair (i.e. there won't be some company, who owns or gets patent for 'enhancing torsional stiffness of downhill equipment including but not limited to skis, snowboards, skiboards by means of tridirectional fibre matrix' and wants to push competitors out of marked by suing them) and Swoard team is interested in production and there will be people, willing to buy Swoard, Swoard production continues. And I'm sure that interest in Swoard grows: all these excellent videos, third-party reviews etc. have generated quite an interest: last weekend I shared lift with skier, who recognized my Swoard by its shape (top-sheet was totally covered with snow)

[Matt]

Hi!

That's what I tried to express in the other "Thread".

Making a SWOARD is not a question of business but a question of passion!

And moreover, I am convinced that the other brands will have serious difficulties to "copy" the SWOARD!!!

[skywalker]

Yes, Patrice,

I think the same like you, wider boards are necessary for better carving! I was searching a wider high qality alpine board for several years before I bought my Plasma, which is really too narrow. And I don't think, SWOARD has to worry, because the market will grow with the Tendency to carving with wider boards. Thoas who might buy a F2 one day will want to own not only a wide carving board but a good wide carving board. But as the reaper wrote: Every dumb guy can buy a F2 in the store, see the advantages ofa wide carving board and the disadvantages of a f2 .

What I'm trying to say is: The tendency to wider boards by other brands will lead the youth to EXTREMECARVING. And like everybody here in the forum: One day you have improved and want to own a really good board. Maybe there will be others, maybe Virus, maybe Donek, but one of them for sure will be SWOARD.

And beside all this: I'm so happy about every guy (and girl) I see on the slopes with herdboots!!! And I really think, the number of them is already growing. I've seen some beginners in hardboots this winter, what I haven't seen for some seasons. And I very well know your manifesto and I remembered ist already yesterday: Maybe it becomes true and alpine snowboarding will grow again!

[harald]

Hi,
I think one of the best things we can do to promote the sport is to be out there and show what can be done on carving boards in general and wide carving boards like the Swoard in special. When being out doing our things with round, sharp arcs and laydowns I recognize interest even from youngsters with softboots asking us questions about our boards, if it's difficult to learn, if it's fun and such things . Moreover, skiers ask the same questions and I also know skiers (not many yet) that have admired our style and fun on the slope and converted to carving boards. So as I said being on the slopes is one thing. The next is being able to try and buy the equipment and learn to use it. As it is now, in small markets, like the Norwegian, only a couple of shops have equipment and they do little to promote it. Most goes to racers and they have special arrangements with the manufacturers, destroying the retail market.
I have began to convince the shop managers to be more active for example by showing videos like Extremedreamer and Stoked in their shops (maybe there are copyright problems with this) and maybe also organizing demonstrations on the slopes. I will work more on this for the next season, both trying to organize the local freecarvers better and ask the resort manager of our local slopes to put (extreme)carving on the activity calendar . However, this puts a pressure on us to improve our skills.
For the learning side, it is important to have some instructors that can give lessons as fast progress is a cue. I know a couple of good ones and have both experienced and seen what some lessons can do to a beginner. Hopefully, the combination with a broader selection of good, wider boards and us being on the slopes will attract more people to the sport .

[Dave]

I'm convinced that other company's could have an alternative for the swoard in season 2005-2006.
Maybe the first year isn't a good year, but after that, the boards will be good.
It will never be a swoard, but it will be a good brother!

A question to the Swoard-company: How low can you go whit your price?
If you want to sell your boards in Belgium for example, you have to offer one for about 600€!
I think that will be an important factor for someone like me, I live in Belgium and don't use my board 150 days a year!

We will see, Dave

[Nerual]

I just wonder like dave, if you don't plan to lower your prices.
I understand very well that the production of this kind of board is a really complex process.
But, if you sell more the production cost will lower. I think that there is a psychological threshold
which is around 700 euros, above this threeshold the sells drop dramatically.

I'm sure that you should multiply by 2 your sells if the price for a swoard should be around 700 euros.
There is a market for your board !!

On the other hand, if you want to keep the swoard like a product of passion, the price is good.
Maybe you can have a higher price and still sell some boards to really big fans.
If you want to have a bigger audience think about your price.

My 2 cents

Nerual
who will buy a swoard the next season even if the price is still 800 euros,
but not more, ok

[kjl]

I want to say a little about why I first bought a Swoard, and why I think it will stay:

When attempting to choose between many different snowboards, what do you base your decisions upon? All of the board manufacturers say that their boards are the best, and customer feedback and reviews are almost all positive as long as the board is good/excellent (a good board will get a 92% rating and an excellent board will also get a 92% rating). The only userful method after weeding out all the obviously bad boards, in my opinion, is to attempt to judge the character of the manufacturer (is he making boards for fads, trends, money, or passion?) and the expertise of the manufacturer (why would his boards be good?).

In this question, I think the extremecarving website is essential, and it is one of the reasons why I bought a Swoard (the other being that I had already decided that the ideal board for me would be shorter, with longer sidecut, with more flex, which the Swoard filled perfectly). After reading their manifesto, technique tips, comments on equipment, settings, etc., etc., I think it is clear that Jacques:

1) is obviously an excellent rider.
2) can intellectualize what makes him a good rider (i.e. you get actual logic and reasoning on the site, not "go faster, lean more, and punch it!" or "bigger is better!")
3) pays a lot (too much? ) of attention to little details (TD1/TD2 tests w/ different bails, spring modifications on boots, boards, etc.)
4) is fair and open-minded about snowboarding in general (they reject some things, like counterrotation and narrow boards, but they back it up with good, logical reasons. On the other hand, they do not reject soft boots in powder, or the bomber carving style)
5) clearly is making boards for two main reasons: to improve his own riding experience and to improve others' riding experience.

Of course, these traits in my mind describe the ideal board maker. I think people who are serious enough about carving to really do the research will eventually find this site, and develop the same "trust" I have for J/P/N (both trust that they are acting in good faith and trust in their knowledge and expertise), and perhaps some of them will buy a Swoard because of it.

My .02 USD

[fivat]

Thanks all for your interesting replies!

And I'm sure that interest in Swoard grows: all these excellent videos, third-party reviews etc. have generated quite an interest: last weekend I shared lift with skier, who recognized my Swoard by its shape (top-sheet was totally covered with snow)

Yes, I can tell you that the interest in Swoard has increased A LOT this season! (and the Website traffic / downloading is crazy!) I can't give numbers here, for rivalry reasons of course, but they are excellent for a first complete season! But the investments are high, and for the future we have many ideas that require money! (top secret porjects ) Our goal is really to develop our sport (and to be able to pay a full time employee). We have other jobs, Swoard is the result of our passion!

Making a SWOARD is not a question of business but a question of passion!

Exactly!

The tendency to wider boards by other brands will lead the youth to EXTREMECARVING.

People will never forget that "extremecarving" is a term invented by Swoard, and that this sport was developed by this company

I think one of the best things we can do to promote the sport is to be out there and show what can be done on carving boards in general and wide carving boards like the Swoard in special.

Yes, I agree totally!

Hopefully, the combination with a broader selection of good, wider boards and us being on the slopes will attract more people to the sport .

Yes again! Note that we have placed on this Website "attracting" pictures and videos of full laid (and linked) turns in this purpose. But the Swoard is excellent for "normal" carving too, it is versatile and many newcomers would really love riding on the edge!

The only useful method after weeding out all the obviously bad boards, in my opinion, is to attempt to judge the character of the manufacturer (is he making boards for fads, trends, money, or passion?) and the expertise of the manufacturer (why would his boards be good?).

I think it is clear that Jacques:
1) is obviously an excellent rider.
2) can intellectualize what makes him a good rider (i.e. you get actual logic and reasoning on the site, not "go faster, lean more, and punch it!" or "bigger is better!")
3) pays a lot (too much? ) of attention to little details (TD1/TD2 tests w/ different bails, spring modifications on boots, boards, etc.)
4) is fair and open-minded about snowboarding in general (they reject some things, like counterrotation and narrow boards, but they back it up with good, logical reasons. On the other hand, they do not reject soft boots in powder, or the bomber carving style)
5) clearly is making boards for two main reasons: to improve his own riding experience and to improve others' riding experience.

Yes. In my opinion and objectively Jacques is really one of the best shapers in the world! He has a lot of experience (since the beginning of snowboarding) and had created the legendary Knifer for Wild Duck... He is an inventor since his childhood and is still inventing devices in other fields (as an electronic engineer). But above all, he carves like hell (alpine / freestyle / freeride), while there are around very few shapers who are good snowboarders... This is crucial.

Life is great, and Swoard is a nice adventure...

Patrice Fivat

[Dave]

I like your optimism, but if you like it or not, you will have to fight the big company's!!!
The big company's have more money and will have a board like the Swoard up and running in a few years, beleve me!
I see that in other things, and it will be the same with snowboarding!

Keep on carving and keep te spirit

Dave

[pokkis]

What are those big companies ?? Only F2 is around and as i understand even they have less carving models for next year.

[fivat]

Dave, the other companies will never have a board like the Swoard. The carbon fiber parts of the ATC Matrix (machined with a high accuracy) for example are very expensive (100 Euros per board!!). There is nobody as crazy as Jacques Rilliet to dare to incorporate this in a snowboard, increasing highly the final prize!

Moreover imitating is not understanding how it works...

Patrice Fivat

[Hans]

Well,
I had some emailexchange with Frank Dietzel from Virus, www.virus-snowboards.de. They will come with a new boot as a serious answere to the stiff Raichle AF700/Indy. It will be more flexible, with a better springsystem, and a shell that can stand any coldness. It will be a serious modification of a former UPSboot. Pictures will be available within two weeks according to Frank.

VIRUS will also come out with a VIRUS EXTREME CARVER.
Custommade to the ridersweight. Length 175 cm. Width about 22,2 cm. Price about € 900,00.

So competition is coming, I am curious about the boots and the board to come. Because the boards of VIRUS are very high performance and well made. They also have a very good tailprotection.

Greets, Hans.

[skywalker]

Phuhhh,

can't tell you, how glad I am, that ist was you to write this ind the forum. They would have killed or at least banned me, if I had made this statement.... but they will be able to test my VIRS next weekend in Zinal *LOL*