sensation of gravity/pressure when fully laid out?

[audacium]

Reading again my post I find that I did not separate these issues clearly enough.

It was not my intention to equate so called bomber carves and counter rotation. Rather, I meant with bomber carves exactly what was described by kjl: the rider is using a strong body angulation instead of lying flat to achieve a strong edge angulation. (But still I think that through this position the "danger" of counter rotation is greater, at least the body is quite twisted and thus somewhat inflexible / uncomfortable, as shoulders and hips are directed in different directions. What do you think?)

As well, I did not separate banana turns and bomber carves (@ yyzcanuck). One can do banana turns in EC, too, of course, and vice versa one can do closed turns with bomber carves. I just wanted to say that in race one usually uses bomber carves and does at the same time rather banana turns, what does not necessarily go together. EC would not really work for a race course, and closed turns neither...

As Jacques said, there are many riding styles, of course! After having tried out both styles I just find for myself the EC style with clean rotation turns more natural and comfortable - imho the "flow" is somewhat nicer. But it demands a reasonably well groomed piste for not to become too painful...

Eduard.

[fivat]

I take exception to having turns that are not "EC" in nature, referred to as "Bomber" turns. And especially if you want to call those turns 'banana' turns.

You have read the thread too quickly. I have used the term "banana turns" for racing. The "Bomber" style doesn't exclude "closed" turns!

Racers have to make the turns without loosing speed, change direction quickly and avoid the gates.

The trajectory is more straight at racing in a giant slalom. In EC there is a traverse/horizontal phase (that can be very short!) at the end of each turn: the turn is "closed". Then the body is laid early in the next turn, after a quick edge change.

Yes yyzcanuck, there is room for many riding styles! I would add "for many disciplines". The race style is well known, the "Bomber" style too. We just debate here about the EC style: differences and important points, that are difficult to understand as long as you haven't experimented them.

Patrice Fivat

[harald]

It has been a very interesing and fruitful discussion so far. It also seems that the points of view begin to converge. What matters now is to go out at the slopes, train and practice. It would be even more interesting to try out various things and discuss when being at the slopes as what my companions and I try to do when we are out there. When trying to sum up some of the discussion is that a good snowboarder and carver should build up a large repertoire of techniques and skills so she/can master all terrain and snow conditions. There is not one technique that suits all. The long fully closed (180 degrees or more) laid down turns are fun on well groomed, wide pistes and short (banana turns) are necessary when it is bumpy and the space is limited. Still there might be some basic skills necessary for making good carves. One is the ability to use the knees both to put the exact amount of edge pressure and to absorb the varying forces during the turn and terrain steepness. Another is to work with the balance. A third is to develop the feeling for gliding and the snow.
When I have a chance to watch the racers in my club training, I study their various exercices and also ask the trainers of their explanation of good carving technique. Those racers are at at good national level, one at an international level and they do both cross, slalom and giant slalom. One important thing, I was explained is to have the shoulders parallell to the board throughout the turn and traverse in order to use the body weight to put pressure on the edge. In other words, have the front shoulder in the speed direction the whole time. In my understanding, that is a sort of rotational technique. Another important thing is to position the body so the forces are working in a straight line from ankles, knees, chest (shoulders). In that case the forces are always directed from the shoulders to the edges from vertical to fully laid down position. In free boarding one exercise is to do long 180 degrees turns with the hands between the knees and only use body weigth, angulation and inclination to change direction. At the same time I see that this technique (shoulder always in the speed direction) also works well in extremely fast slalom tracks.
Since I do some ski racing, I see the similarities between these two carving disciplines. Also when training on slalom skis, we do a lot of free riding and one exercice for developing the feeling for snow, balance and edging is doing linked 180 degrees (closed) turns. in varying terrain and snow. The same is a very good exercise on the board.
It would be nice to meet some of you on the snow to continue the discussion in relation to practice, but as I see from the addresses, we are scattered almost all over the northern part of the world. However, you from the more central parts of Europe might have the chance to meet and excange experience on the snow.

[kjl]

Interesting that you bring up that style (shoulders facing the nose at all times)... I went to a race camp this summer and our coaches (including Lisa Kosglow, from the US Olympic team) taught us the same thing. In fact, I was rotating my toeside turns and she told me to stop doing it, and it improved both the turns around the gates as well as the closed turns I was doing off the course. I'm not actually interested in racing at all - I just wished to learn what they knew. I think as Harald does that it is good to learn lots of different techniques and use them in your riding.

I was actually planning this year, when attempting to learn EC, to try both a rotated and unrotated toeside turn. Not completely unrotated, but to go from a rotated heelside position into a neutral toeside (shoulders facing same direction as boots), and see how that works out.

Yeah, it is too bad it is so hard to find other carvers, let alone EC carvers. Luckily, this guy, Peter:
viewtopic.php?t=278
rides where I ride and he is great!

[jason_watkins]

Racers do occasionally what ever needed to do to survive on track, one should never look just one shot or one turn there, rather general way of riding during whole race.

Thanks, I said exactly this when people were discussing technique based on pictures of racers in mid turn on another forum last year. I got flamed in response, but I knew the principle was correct.

[jason_watkins]

As explained with the push-pull technique it seems like you have misunderstood it. You initiate the turn with a slight upper body rotation and then you edge. The dosing of your edging depend on how you use your knees and can be done as gentle as you want. In fact the rotational style and push-pull make it even more easy to turn in soft and bad snow conditions. How much edge pressure to apply is a matter of developing balance and feeling for the snow.

So, in a "bomber" style turn, we start out extended, compress durring the first half of the turn, and expand in the latter half. In a EC style, we start compressed, extend through the first half, and pull the board back to us in the latter half.

So, in the first half of a bomber turn, because I am decreasing the distance between my CG and the board at some rate, I am subtracting from the force that is transmitted between the board and myself. In an EC turn, because I am pushing my CG away, I am adding to the force.

All of that is independant of how quickly or gently I increase edge angle.

So it seems to me, a "bomber" or race style turn will always allow you to build pressure durring the first half of the turn more gradually. Or am I missing something?

[harald]

Now we should be at the slopes to see what is going on combined with the technique discussions. Till now I have not understood what a "bomber" turn is but jason-watkins explained this in the latest post.

So it seems to me, a "bomber" or race style turn will always allow you to build pressure durring the first half of the turn more gradually. Or am I missing something?

I think it would be useful to try to sort things out when discussing further, and I will also try to be clearer in explaining what I mean.
First, to me EC = Extreme Carving meaning an extreme carved turn lying flat on the snow with the board vertical to the surface. The basis for the turn is rotation with the upper body for initiating the turn and push-pull with the legs.
Push-pull means extending the legs in the first half of the turn and rectracting them in the second half or last part. This movement can be done from almostvertical to horizontal body positions and both in combination with rotation and counter rotation. So EC and push-pull is not the same thing, but push-pull in EC is used to control the sideways edge pressure caused by centrifugal and gravity forces.

As long as we are not lying flat I cannot see why push-pull should not allow to build pressure more gradually. Edge pressure to me is a result of speed, angulation of the board, distribution of weight between front and back foot and how fast you extend and retract the legs during the various phases of the turn. When we study both racers and freecarvers we will see that they have to extend (push) during the turn to allow the board to be in contact with snow and allow the board to travel a longer distance than the body and retract (pull) to absorb the shocks and gravity forces. We will also see that extending in the beginning, contraction in the middle, and extension in the end is necessary to make clean carves over moguls, still to keep contact and regulate pressure, or to use downmovement for unloading an edge change. My conclusion is that both the "bomber" style as described and push-pull will allow to build pressure during the first half of the turn more gradually.
Still the most important thing is to develop our spectre of techniques so that we can adjust to different snow and terrain conditions and have fun when riding. Technique is not at matter of religion but being pragmatic.

[kjl]

So it seems to me, a "bomber" or race style turn will always allow you to build pressure durring the first half of the turn more gradually. Or am I missing something?

I think that's right: bomber turns let you build pressure more gradually during the first half of the turn. I think, however, that the reason that push pull turns sound so functional to me now, is that a carve sort of "wants" to be low pressure in the first half and very high pressure in the second half anyways. So if you were to do "the Norm" carves as described on bomberonline (I've seen your name on the forums there, so I guess you've read the tech articles; in case you haven't, it means doing carves while keeping your body in a single, frozen position) you would feel very little pressure during the first half and a lot of pressure during the second half. This is certainly what I experience when I carve, and the feeling is exaggerated when I carve very hard and aggressively. I can feel almost completely weightless during the first half and then many G's of force during the second half if I lay it over far enough. Because of this, I don't think I have ever, ever fallen during the first half of a carve (except in very soft slush, when the board went straight instead of flexing), and I always fall during the second half.

Therefore maybe it makes sense to concentrate your efforts on making the second half of the turn easier, even if it makes the first half of the turn a little harder. This is why I think the push-pull turn makes sense. You extend during the first half of the turn, which adds more pressure, but that's OK - that's the easy part anyways. And then on the second half of the turn, you pull, reducing the pressure, which makes the hardest part of the carve a little easier.

It's like that example I used before: approaching a small dip in the snow with a sharp downslope followed by a sharp upslope. If you rode it normally, you'd feel weightless on the downslope (you'd fall into the dip) and a lot of pressure on the upslope. Nobody ever falls on the downslope part - they fall when they hit the upslope and get hit with a lot of pressure. So even though it adds more pressure if you extend your legs on the downslope, it makes sense to do it because by pulling your legs in on the upslope you decrease the pressure during the hard part of the run.

All totally conjecture, of course - I have never push-pull turned, but hope to learn this year.

[jason_watkins]

KJL:

Thanks for that great explination. I think that's probibly the best perspective on the difference. Maybe when you're on N.E. USA blue ice you need that gentleness on the first half of the turn, but otherwise I tink that's right on.

[skywalker]

Sorry, really, I don't want be be harsh!!!

But These posting sound like You have not been carving for a much too long time. You don't feel the forces of extending Your legs at all. Realize the time of a closed turn and look at the time it takes. The acceleration might be --- well --- close to zero. Without any acceleration no force exept those from the weight. I did all kinds of turns already years ago on skis and thre is not really a better or a worse way to turn. The most important point in pushing and pulling is the feeling You get for the edge and the snow. And with push-pull turns Your legs usually are more flexed, it's used in skiing for the moguls and it certainly works good an a snowboard, too. Especially in the first part of the turn, when Your CG is moved beside the board, with other styles (sorry, I don't know the bomber-names for so many funny ways of that simple thing) You are extended in the beginning and will lose control if any uneveness is hit.

Another important point in EC is to lay down and to get up. I will start with getting up. That's (some of us might know well from surfing) much easier, if You bend Your knees. Theres no way to come up again with straightened legs, believe me. And there's a rather long way down, if You start a laid down turn with extended legs, too. Even it's hard to fully lay down with bent knees and hips
So there's simlply no other way do do EC than push-pull. You cross over (sorry, sounds like bomber-language again, but has no such meaning) Your board as low as possible, get the edge lightened by bending Your legs and control the turn by extending the legs. It's pretty simple, I think. But only the understanding, not the performance ))

I don't want to say anything about rotation, because everything was said already by Jacques and Patrice and in this Thread too many things were mixed together. This is only about push pull in EC.

The snow is to come soon, so just try it!!!

greetz

Tom

[audacium]

@skywalker

I partially agree that sometimes different issues were mixed, while they should be looked at separately (e.g. rotation and push-pull). So this was maybe a little bit confusing.

But I do not really see your point in denying the pressure felt during the turn. You obviously neglect the centrifugal acceleration during a turn which is very well felt (with the snowboarder being a non-inertial system). And one can very well feel a difference in the force on the legs between push-pull and pull-push technique.

So it is right and I agree, that getting up implicitly demands bending the knees at the end of the turn. Really lying flat on the slope but still getting up at the end will only work with the push-pull technique. But apart from that it is perfectly plausible to add the point of view on the forces felt during a turn. No one said (at least I did not understand it this way) that the forces felt during a turn should be a decisive or even the sole point in deciding the style of your riding and turns. But this point is still worth for additional considerations, don't you think?

As you said: The snow has come, and I tried last week - there are differences between the different styles, and right so. Each technique has its advantages in certain conditions. For EC: use push-pull. For moguls: Use rather pull-push (but push-pull works, too...) etc.


Blue Skies,

Eduard.

[skywalker]

You're right, of course...

for sure I did not neglect centrifugal forces! I even think that they are mostly everything You feel. But I don't believe, that You feel the acceleration of extending Your legs. The radius Your board follows depends on the movement of Your legs and from this I think You feel different forces --> centripedal forces which are accelration forces, right, but rather no acceleration forces from extending Your legs. The main part of the forces are caused by a changing radius and so changing centripedal forces. This is because the the board angulation is getting higher when You bend Your knees and lower if You extend them. The acceleration caused by these forces is much higher than the one Your legs can bring to You.

Things were just becomming too complicated in my opinion. Sometimes it's better to go out and ride than only to talk about how things might be. Please don't misunderstand me: I believe, that You do better snowboarding if You understand what You are doing. What I wanted to point out was: You don't do push-pull because of the little acceleration deriving from the extension of Your legs, because of many other reasons. There might be less maximum force to You... maybe. And the imagination of EC with pull-push-technique is really funny! I'll try this winter and will tell You if it works

[harald]

I agree with Skywalker and Audacium. Let's go out in the snow and ride. Then I will be glad to continue the technique discussion, but based on fresh observation and experience. It's about 6 month since last time on a snowboard, and it is easy to forget exactly how the movements are performed. Based on experience with watching video recordings of my own riding (on skis, however), not always the beliefs of what one does conforms with what the recording tells.

[audacium]

So now we are all happy

[kjl]

Sometimes it's better to go out and ride than only to talk about how things might be.

Hah, of course you are right, but what can I do? There is no snow anywhere near California, so I have to resort to pedantic physics musings on these forums to avoid going insane! So every minute that I'm not at work, or dancing my little snow dance, I'm posting here

I am glad for and envious of those of you already riding this year.