Counterrotation vs Neutral Postion (Attention large Pictures

[Whitey]

Felix, eventhough I'am not a race-oriented carver at all, this thread seems to be good technique oriented writing. It is pleasure to read, thanx!

[fivat]

Yes, bravo!

Patrice Fivat

[vkrouverk]

One goal for me to post this picture collection is to show that racing technique is not so far away from freecarving or even extremecarving as many people think.

Indeed, as from mentioned book one can conclude, there is not so much difference between EC and racing techniques. EC is rotational (but only in vertical axis), but apart from that both techs suggest centered and aligned stances.
Centered means, that weight distribution is 50/50 between legs. About alignment one can read in mentioned site:
http://www.snowsportmoves.com/ (just go over links there), but basic rule I gathered is that pelvis is the "source" of balance and (especially in case of racing) movement should start from there. Other joints (ankles, knees, hips, vertebrae and atlas) should be in aligned position as this will result in "natural" and most efficient stance, requiring little effort and being effective. Key issue here is that skeleton (not muscles) take load from body weight.
As I understand, upper body rotation (or "counterrotation") is not an issue, as long as body itself remains in vertical alignment. And I believe that this is "da very point", what Felix tries to bring out.
NB! Disclaimer: this is theory, don't ask me about practice, as I am not qualified to answer And even this theory goes probably over my head

[rilliet]

Thanks Felix for this very interesting and clear explanations.

I think you put the finger on a very important point: the hips, that are the center of gravity of the body, leads all the overall movement. This means that a rotation, no-rotation or counterrataion is done by the hips whatever the upper body does. Correct?

This also means that if someone has a problem to realise a proper movement, he should concentrate on his hips.

I know it's a big job, but I would be also very interested if you could show us the proper race technique with two short videos, one at normal speed and one at slow speed, in the same way we did in our technical pages. This kind of sequence allow to see a lot of movements details.

Jacques

[everts72]

I know it's a big job, but I would be also very interested if you could show us the proper race technique with two short videos, one at normal speed and one at slow speed, in the same way we did in our technical pages. This kind of sequence allow to see a lot of movements details.

this will be great to see

[Felix]

Well I can see for a video by Feb / March or at the latest on the next camp I will atttend.

Stay tuned, I will edit the first post right now, just got a PM allowing me to upload the images - I'll add them to the first post. Should be done in 10 Minutes.

And yes for movement I would allways first concentrate on the hips. In my eyes the upper body rotation is needed for corrections, but what counts is the hips.

I'm a bit unsure about this, as I have seen many shots of Amelie Kober and some others with counterrotation at the hips for Frontside (not for backside though) and I am not sure why they do this. The opinion from both of my coaches (both are still young and participated at good level in Europecup racing and/or snowboardcross) is calling for neutral position if possible.

[Hans]

I found this helpful.
Look how the upperbody stays in the same position, backside or frontside!https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIdkS-25o94

[Felix]

So now I added the pictures to the first post. It's DONE.
Hope everyone can value this, cause it took loads of time to convert and cut the images, then upload them to images_not_allowed_hack get them in the post and comment with what is my knowledge. I might after the weekend post a link to this thread on our forum (from my racing club) to get maybe some really qualified opinions on the subject.

As for the video, I'm not really sure how perfect the technique is as the quality is so bad you can't really see how the legs track, it's very good technique for sure and I'ld like to be able to ride like this, but I think he could work a bit on his frontside. He's using cross-through so very quick edge to edge transitions but not that much acceleration as with cross-over used for racing, also I don't like him beeing with the hand in the snow (of course it looks cool, but I think he could react better with the hand not in the snow).

[pokkis]

Race film, if some saw/taped PGS open from Sölden, there was plenty of great race style riding.
Felix, great topic with great info , sorry not yet time to concentrate to fully to pics yet but i try to arrange time on weekend, if local slopes dont open.

[harald]

Hi,
Interesting thread. In the same vein carving jibes and most other moves in windsurfing are controlled by the hips so it seems to be a lot of parallells between gliding and dynamic balance sports. I will start practicing at Saturday.

[Pogokoenig]

I think you put the finger on a very important point: the hips, that are the center of gravity of the body, leads all the overall movement. This means that a rotation, no-rotation or counterrataion is done by the hips whatever the upper body does. Correct?

Don't think so. As you can see in other (similar) sports (Motorcycling, Biking, Car-racing), the movement is not initiated by the center of gravity. Your hips won't do anything if your head and your upper body don't initiate the move. Try to do a laid heelside turn and then move your head outside the carve. See what happens and what your hips do.

Try the same while Mountainbiking.

The hips may be the center of the movement - but definitely not the leader.

[fivat]

Try to do a laid heelside turn and then move your head outside the carve. See what happens and what your hips do.

I do that sometimes with no problem, but I have to concentrate. It's cool to turn the head and say hello to a friend with a hand (the one that is not on snow ) during fully laid heelside turns. Sometimes we are joking about the idea of reading a book or eating a sandwich during the laid turns.

In other sports and other movements, it's right that the head is crucial. Particularly for the rolls and other jump figures.

Patrice Fivat

[Felix]

.....the movement is not initiated by the center of gravity. Your hips won't do anything if your head and your upper body don't initiate the move. Try to do a laid heelside turn and then move your head outside the carve. See what happens and what your hips do.
Try the same while Mountainbiking.
The hips may be the center of the movement - but definitely not the leader.

In my eyes you need the upper body for stabilization, yes. But not to initiate a turn nor to LEAD the rotation. Also strong rotation in your upper body must not go hand in hand with rotation in hips or vice versa. I often compensated for counterrotation with hips by strong rotation with upper body, as people told me to rotate more. I tried hard to rotate my upper body even further, but this didn't work as I blocked in the hips. This resulted in those really scary images on page 1.

Carving is a fluid movement, during which you don't need rotation or counterrotation with your upper body for initiation. If you want to drift, that's were you need it to compensate for the impulse that you need to turn your board/skis. The impulse for changing the edges on carving skis/snowboards is however NOT the rotational movement BUT the unweighting/weighting of your legs in the form of Cross-Under, Cross-Through, or Cross-Over. Trying to carve without unweighting will not work at all.

Try some skiing on slalom carvers to notice that you don't need any rotation at all to do it. The main technique needed is bending at the waist vs leaning in with the whole body plus initiation for the turn by up/down movement (Cross-through or Cross-under for skiers slalom) Again hips are needed for technique, while upper body should only stabilize. The more stable the riders are with their upper body in slalom, the faster they are usually (in WC slaloms). This contrasts heavily to "classic skiing" of the pre-carving era when rotation with upper body was vital for skiing. Carving on skis is essentially the same technique as carving on a snowboard.

Off course taking extremecarving as an example it is hard to rotate with the hips strongly, without rotating the upper body, but not out of any reason related to stability or turn initiation but simple ergonomics. Stand stil on the ground with shoulder wide stance (without any sports gear) and try to rotate your hips while not rotation your upper body. You will only get to a certain point, if you now rotate your upper body too your hips will rotate for some more degrees too. Out of that reason the upper body should follow what your lower body (mainly hips) does.

Concluding, for extreme rotation or counterrotation your upper body should follow (follow or go hand in hand but not lead) the rotation of your hips. If your hips stay neutral there is no need at all to do any pre-/counter-/ or same time rotation. The most stable position if your hips are neutral is if your upper body stays neutral too. If your rotated with your hips its best to rotate with upper body too, however only so far that you can still rotate even furter on taking shocks, bumps etc.

The importance is nevertheless allways that you're whole body is under equal tension, having tension in one part while hanging down with other parts of your body like wet cotton won't be good at all.

[Pogokoenig]

Felix: We are almost completely in line. For doing a turn, rotation is not essential, but it is a tool you can use or - in most cases - i would highly recommend to use.

Patrice: Try to turn your head out, when you ride on your limits. The more demandig the condtions, the more you are forced to ride exactly and take usage of the given tools.

[Felix]

Have a look at Vahur's pictures of extremecarving --> On many pictures where you can see both hips and upperbody you will note that the riders upper body is not twisted in relation to the hips (definitely not taking Benj or Sorro into account). It looks like even for extremecarving (pre-)rotation with the hips only is easily enough.

You can see on the following pics that while Nils and Patrice rotate mostly out of their hips while upper body is facing about the same direction as the hips, Jacques is rotation less out of the hips but more with the upper body (this are momentaneous shots, not video but I'll hava a look at the videos tonight).
http://carving.grewu.org/gallery/ecsIV/ ... c_4287.htm

Or here.
http://carving.grewu.org/gallery/ecsIV/awards/index.htm

@ Pogokoenig please don't make full quotes, this makes reading hard.