beginner progression

[jason_watkins]

I'm just starting out, and reading old posts on freecarve ran into someone advising not to start learning carving with push pull turns. I'm curious what the thought here on that would be. While I can't even carve a turkey at the moment, push pull turns seem a more understandable motion. The cern site reccomends starting with extension carves, and JM reccomends doing the norm (static carves).

So, for a total beginner who's just now learned to do basic sliding turns without counter-rotation, what would you reccomend trying to best learn carving?

Normally I like to figure things out in my own way, but since I'm eager to progress quickly this season, thought I'd get some input and leverage the experience of those wiser than me ;P. Also, using softboot equipment with my large feet necessitates low angles and a wide board... annother reason I'd like the point of view here.

I'm on a donek wide 161 with a 26cm waist. Stance is just a touch wider than 19", angles of 30 and 20.

[rilliet]

Hi Jason,

Sorry for the delay, but we are very busy here with our boards production and website.

To beginners, I teach first the rotation without any vertical motion (See the basic turns videos in the tech pages).
Then when the rider can do it correctly I show the push-pull turn.

I must say that teachers here usually show first, what is called "cross-over" technique. But as we said, we think that push-pull is much more efficient in bad conditions.
It is also more difficult, especially when people are already used to cross-over technique.

You can see the efficiency of push-pull in the ski Worldcup where the best skiers are winning with this technique (ie: Bode Miller, Jana kostelic).

I've seen the tread "Push-Pull technique- Jack some help here???" on the Bomberonline forum. I can't agree with Jack Michaud, except on the fact everybody should choose the technique he likes the best.

The rotation/counter-rotation debate is existing nearly since the beginning of snowboarding (I have been taught the rotation in 1988).

I think that with Bomberonline.com and Extremecarving.com, people have an overview of all the techniques available, and that's excellent.

Have a good training

Jacques

[jason_watkins]

Hi Jacques,

Thanks for your well considered post. I firmly agree with you on the idea that all techniques are tools to use, that there is no "one right technique".

Your basic turn videos were very helpful to me as a beginner. I still don't have the rythem and "soft" feeling of board contact, so I continue to just work on those movements over and over on the hill. I have tried pressuring the edge a bit through the movements, and have managed a few isolated carved turns... but it's clear I need to clean up the extra movement in the basic turns first.

Anyhow, thanks, and I'm very glad to see a instruction geared directly at novices to both snowboarding and carving. Most carving instruciton I've found on the web assumes that you're moving over after having done a few years of freeriding. Perhaps this is one reason carving isn't so popular?

Also, don't forget www.freecarve.com. The forum isn't nearly so nice as here, but there's plenty of good information burried in the archives.

[rikytheripster]

firstly i was the guy who posted the:
"push-pull technique- jack some help here?"

i totally agree with being open to all techniques, and being competant at each- whether cross-through or push pull, etc.

I take it your are familiar with the saying 'sitting on the toilet'. with the stance angles you have it is very difficult to not sit on the toilet whilst on a heelside turn- sittring on the toilet is bad technique as it takes away your ability to effectively pressurise the edge whilst carving. i would suggest incrreasing your angles to like 40/37, 40/40 45/40- sumthin like that- J&P ride(i think) like 45/40 or sumthin. these angles will stop you sitting on the toilet and thus improve your carving. ALSO currently u have a 10 degree difference between angles on ur front and back foot- i would decrease this to a maximum of 5 degrees. this would allow your legs - especially your knees to work better together. also the stresses experianced on your legs will be more balanced- one leg is not under much more stress than the other.

[jason_watkins]

I'm in softboots, so I have no problem getting shoulders square to the board on heelside. Also, sitting the toilet happens when your body is compressed like in the classic alpine carve. If you're specificly using push pull you're extending through the carve so the problem is minimized.

I would love to know J&P's advice on steep moguls.

[rikytheripster]

i can see that if using push and pull technique you wont be compressing and thus will not be sitting on the toilet.
Doesnt it hurt your knees to rotate from angles 30/20 until your shoulders are square with the board? I found that riding 40/40 still did not feel natural when squaring the shoulders.

[jason_watkins]

nope, feels fine.

I can even turn my shoulders square at much lower angles as well. I think the key is that softboots let you rotate your ankles forward, and you have to drive the rear knee towards the front.

I don't know if I'd be able to do it in hardboots where your ankle is more restricted.

[Eddie Risser]

You can still rotate your ankle while in snowboarding hard boots. If you have never been in a pair yet, you'll find out that they are in no way as stiff as ski boots. Once you get in a pair you will find carving much more enjoyable.

Eddie