Feedback on pics...sorry no video...

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Feedback on pics...sorry no video...

Postby keepTheSport » Thursday 12 July 2012, 21:58

Hi

I only managed to get these photos by sheer chance of a self employed photographer being on the slopes and selling the pics. However, any feedback is welcome. I know things don't look quite right but I've only been at this alpine stuff a couple months and I was grateful to stay upright :)

I really don't mind if there is a long list of mistakes, followed by advice :lol2: I'm here to learn :bravo:

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Relaxing the stance & body position.

Postby rcrobar » Friday 13 July 2012, 7:46

I think the main thing is that you are having fun and learning, so take my comments with that in mind.

Also, your pictures are all heelside or backside turns, post a toeside picture if you are able to.


Try this, maybe it will help give you a bit of insight.

1) While looking at the first picture you provided, use something to cover your picture from the knees DOWN. Your UPPER body position is that of a soft booter with stance angles that are quite low.

2) Again while looking at the first picture you provided, use something to cover your picture from the knees UP. Your LOWER body position is that of a racer with very steep stance angles.

For me your upper and lower body positions makes me feel that you are not in a very comfortable riding position; there must be a lot of torque on your rear knee, more than there should be.

So, my suggestion(s) would be to experiment with your stance angles and experiment with your hip placement.

For the backside turn your hips/shoulders should be more in the PLUS position, while the hips/shoulders will be in the minus position for a frontside turn.

To start with I would try stance angles that are quite low by EC or race standards as this is where you body position seems to naturally wants to go, do this even if your toes hang over the edge.

Also try riding with the stance angles you already have, but try to get your hips to be much more facing forward (the plus position for your backside pictures).

Try to find a happy medium, with regards to your stance angles, between the very high and low angles that you may test.

Ideally, at your stage of learning hardboots, perhaps you should try to bring your hips a bit more forward and lower your stance angles a bit ... your stance angles will change as your comfort level in hardboots grows.

Finding the perfect stance angle is what I call the dirty little secret of Hard Boots, it takes time.

Hope this helps.
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Re: Feedback on pics...sorry no video...

Postby Abrax » Friday 13 July 2012, 9:04

Nice pics, so beautiful with the snow all around you :-)

Rob is right but my approach is much less delicate. I would not suggest to ride comfortably because at this moment comfortably means as similar to your well known soft boot style as possible. So I will suggest what follows:

1. Forget that you can ride snowboard. Forget at all. You are strongly influenced by the soft boot setup and this one is completely different. So you need to find your way to learn completely different moves (and learn all the moves again considering that now you are 45degr rotated left).

What is actually happening: Your body does not know the right move so it is forcing you to use the well known soft-boot snowboard moves. This means that you "sit on a chair" while riding backside turn instead of going lower with twisted hips and upper body (because now you are rotated (angles)) .

Visually: the most important thing here: seems that your shoulders are parallel to the board line and should be almost perpendicular! So in this situation (first photo) you need about 80degr of left rotation on your shoulders.

Please note that we are discussing just the backside turn at this moment.

What will change after you will learn the right move?
Your body will have less tendency to go to "safe mode" which at this moment is your well known soft boot style (where you usually "sit on a chair" while doing a backside turn).

2. After you will learn these moves, we could discuss: right body balance (should be more backwards on the third photo) , shoulder level (should be always parallel to the board and not lower and higher as it is on the first photo), stance (seems that this should be a bit narrower) etc, many different minor aspects :-)

The most important thing here: the balance -> seems that you stand 80% on your front foot and just 20% on back -> this causes the back of your backside edge to lose it's grip. Should be 50% to 50% and the turns should get so much easier :-) This is often connected with counter-rotational style met so often on soft - boots.

You don't want to adapt all this to your comfort, you want to change this to something you don't know yet and then find all this comfortable!

But this is the very first season with hard boots and seems very promising!
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Negative Learning

Postby rcrobar » Friday 13 July 2012, 16:38

Hi

From a teaching perspective, I find the first 3 posts in this thread VERY interesting.

I too think Abrax is correct, especially with his suggestion to forget that you can ride a snowboard. The term I was taught for this concept was 'Negative Learning' or 'Prior Learning,' this is the idea that a previously learned movement is interfering with the learning of a new movement.

The next question then becomes is it better to un-learn the old movement though approximations of the new moment, or is it better start with the completely new movement in it's entirety?

Hmmm, good question and one that I am not going to suggest I have a definitive answer to, there are just too many variables to consider. My post suggests you sneak up on the movement via approximations, Abrax's post suggests you start from scratch and just do the new movement completely ... both approaches have a lot of merit.


Here is a hypothetical example for both experienced and new alpine riders to consider and comment on:


You are running the demo tent at the next ECS and a rider like keepTheSport comes to the tent. They have just seen Pat and Jacques ripping up the mountain and they want to try hard boots. KeepTheSport is a good athlete, has been a soft boot snowboarder for a long time. You have to decide what equipment you are going to send out of the tent. For this hypothetical example I am going to give two board, binding and stance set ups, they are as follows:

Set Up 1) The Extremecarver with bindings, boots, and set up (50's front - 40's back) exactly the same as Patrice.

Set Up 2) The Dual with the softest possible plate bindings and the softest possible hard boots with a stance set up of 40's in the front and 30's back.

Which set up is the new to hard boots rider going to have more fun on, get hooked on hardboots and not get frustrated and want to spend a 1000 plus Euros on equipment, Set Up 1 or 2??

Again it is impossible to get a definitive answer to this question. That said, my experience with new riders has lead me to the conclusion that I would send the rider out with Set Up 2 ... the Dual with plates. This is my reasoning for giving keepTheSport the advice I did.

I would like to modify or clarify my advice to KeepTheSport, here it goes:

I would follow Abrax's suggestion to just try to completely do the rotation technique and forget about your what you have learned before, but I would suggest that this may be easier to do with lower stance angles that put you in a more familiar and comfortable body position.

I would also add to this that you go back to your soft boot set up and change your stance angles (steeper angles). Watching FunCarve in his rotation tutorial video would also have me suggest that new riders experiment with this 'new' movement by simply changing their stance angles (steeper angles) on their freeride board with soft boots to sneak up on this new movement.

Would love to hear both new and experience riders thoughts and opinions on this topic.

Cheers
Rob
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Re: Feedback on pics...sorry no video...

Postby keepTheSport » Friday 13 July 2012, 19:15

Cheers for feedback rcrobar, Abrax

Some more pics below, sorry they are grainy but I dropped my printer on the floor - GOOD MOVE :doh: - and now it's broken so couldn't scan, therefore, took pic of a pic with my phone = grainy results :roll: ...

rcrobar,
..."For me your upper and lower body positions makes me feel that you are not in a very comfortable riding position; there must be a lot of torque on your rear knee, more than there should be..."

You are absolutely correct, my back knee has caused me issues all along. I know my body is twisting the softboot way but my legs are forced into the racer stance..you are spot on... :clap3: I think your suggestion of looking at first photo and separating top from bottom half is good idea... and yes I agree that is exactly what I am doing..body is fighting to go to softboot stance...as these pathways are well trained :lol2:

Abrax, Scotland was very lucky to get this extra snowfall, after all the snow had gone! What a surprise it lasted about 6/7 weeks, and yes such beautiful scenery- happy snowy days - not long 'till the new winter season :xmas: your comment "...sitting in the chair..." I hadn't really thought that I should not be doing that :wall: although from pics I agree that I should be getting lower. I actually thought if I bent my knees more that I would be "sitting in a lower chair" :lol2: (as I thought that was correct in EC stuff-obviously not). This also ties in with rcrobar's comments re back knee torque. I found I could not get lower on to back knee because a) knee was always in an injured state b) can't get back boot to flex at front of ankle. Abrax I have not put the springs on yet because these boots are too big for me and I will do so when I get a pair that fit. Unless you think it would still help even in these boots??

rcrobar, from chatting on the slopes with many beginner snowboarders, I would agree that the easier set-up would keep added interest in most...however... if I had only one choice it would be straight onto hardboot setup and 50/40. But I was fortunate enough to have the best of both worlds: adjusting my own 'dual' type board with easier angles (30,27) and an alpine board(50,45). I also think the best way forward for me is what Abrax suggested just get used to it :badgrin:


In my mind's eye I know what I should be doing but obviously I can't see myself in action. This is why it is good to get this feedback from experts such as yourselves :rules: I've been quite lucky that a freelance photographer exists and that I can get such shots. I thought I was twisting my body enough, now I see that I am not :naughty: So i won't be scared to rotate in a way that may feel like I'm over-rotating.

Anyway, thanks so much for comments :) I was hoping to get these pics up and some feedback before I went to the 'fridge', as I didn't want to waste more time doing the wrong thing. I have something to practice now :bravo:

I only have one toe side photo, seems the photographer kept doing heel-side pics. Any way these pics are on the Nidecker Angel soft-boot board (30f,27b).
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Re: Feedback on pics...sorry no video...

Postby vizsyn » Saturday 14 July 2012, 4:38

Hello all!!!

Much like KeepTheSport, I am a very recent convert to hard booting, and can definitely relate to the "growing pains" of trying to relearn how to turn. I am finding the advice given here by Rob and Abrax to be quite informative and helpful. At this point I have virtually no pics or video to show, hopefully that will get addressed once winter returns.

I am definitely quite front-foot heavy, and from what I can remember from the few sessions I managed to get on the ECarver 161M last season, I definitely was struggling with the tendency to fall back on the movements that I'd become accustomed to in soft boots, especially the dreaded "sitting on the toilet" posture when doing backside turns. While I was able to do basic rotation movements on gentler slopes and moderate speeds, I struggled to maintain proper rotational form on steeper terrain and greater speeds, it was tough to try and fight off that instinctive urge to do a counter-rotation :naughty: However, I did notice that my attempts to learn how to employ the Swiss rotational principle resulted in my overall riding style becoming more fluid than how I used to ride. I do realize that I still have quite a long way to go...

For the upcoming season, I am planning to fully master basic rotation turns like FunCarve's first training video, but will use the alpine setup from the very start. I only wish I could afford to go to the ECS, or at least be in constant company of like-minded alpine riders, where learning seems to happen by osmosis. Sadly, all my snowboarding buddies here are more interested in skidding around doing butters and jibs on their noodle-decks.

I just want to be able to consistently carve like this.... Once this is truly mastered, then I can gradually progress to push-pull, and later on to full EC (although there were some instances where I got pretty close to full lay-down on the frontside :D )



Someday, I will get to the Holy Grail(full-blown backside EC)
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Re: Feedback on pics...sorry no video...

Postby keepTheSport » Saturday 14 July 2012, 9:58

Hi Vizsyn

Good to hear from you :) as you said...

"..While I was able to do basic rotation movements on gentler slopes and moderate speeds, I struggled to maintain proper rotational form on steeper terrain and greater speeds, it was tough to try and fight off that instinctive urge to do a counter-rotation :naughty: However, I did notice that my attempts to learn how to employ the Swiss rotational principle resulted in my overall riding style becoming more fluid than how I used to ride. I do realize that I still have quite a long way to go... "

I too found my attempts to do Swiss rotational style has resulted in overall improvements. TBH on the steeper slopes my intuition :idea: kicks in and I crouch and bend my legs much more especially before I go into the turn and then the push pull definitely comes into play. I have had such fun on this part. It's like I know if I don't crouch and bend knees more, then I will crash :cry: I tend to fall on the flatter sections :lol: I'm not saying I've got this new technique nailed on steeper bits but I know it improves. When I start losing speed I tend to stand up more and I'm back to what you see in the pics . Still I should have the proper body position etc all the times. I will see if I can get a video done this year.

Vizsyn, I know what you mean in that the learning curve is made a little harder and longer when you do this stuff on your own. However, I did take up snowboarding on my own and 99.9% of the time I go on my own. I have found on occasions when I have had the company of a skier (sorry about the swear word :badgrin: ) that I just want to be left alone to do snowboard drills.

I too have been thinking about turning up at the Zinal ECS 2013 but when I tried to book a room in a hotel they wanted a 60% deposit now! and I was actually going to go for two weeks-that has put me off. I don't mind paying but 60% deposit now :think: Maybe someone will have a spare space nearer the time that I could take :idea: but I really wanted to go for two weeks and not 3 days. Instead I shall get a Swoard board 8) , as there is a really good steep slope at Glenshee (my local slope in Scotland) that would be ideal for practicing on :clap2:
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Re: Feedback on pics...sorry no video...

Postby Abrax » Monday 16 July 2012, 8:00

Rob:
I know that you were probably 100% right to propose learning new moves via approximations as this is usually far more accurate -> there are not so many persons able to completely forget about a specific movement's parts and start from scratch by simply doing the better move. This approach is usually possible after completely understanding the big theory which is not really possible for usual riders. I mean that one should focus on at most few things at once and not on building the whole movement because it is simply extremely difficult. Let's take cars as an example -> one can become a perfect driver via practicing, but it is usually not really important to get familiar with all the grip related physics which is so needed for becoming a no.1 F1 Champion :-)

I've written the above because I like to break the theory and focus on pure advances. And my style suggests very definite and rapid progressions but unfortunately this is not really comfortable for many persons. ;) You are much more experienced and you know how important is the fun factor. In case of choosing my path of learning the fun factor comes after at least few runs later which may be a bit too much frustrating for a student.

What is very important here, having all the above in mind I would probably also suggest riding the 2nd setup if I was in this tent...

keepTheSport wrote:can't get back boot to flex at front of ankle. Abrax I have not put the springs on yet because these boots are too big for me and I will do so when I get a pair that fit. Unless you think it would still help even in these boots??

Sure - this system is all about the right flex becomming possible AFTER it is installed ;) Joking... But yes, it will seriously better your edge feel and the way all this works for you. Too big boots? How much? 1cm?2cm? Please tell us more because there are some methods to make your boots fit better even when they are a bit too big.

Finally all this depends on what you want to achieve.
If you aim in pure EC -> IMO it is best to try to relearn all the moves and the reactions from scratch and with proper equipment from the far beginning.
If you simply want to carve better, I would go with Rob's method as this is definitely much less frustrating :-)
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Fun Factor

Postby rcrobar » Monday 16 July 2012, 18:29

Great thread guys, very interesting comments!

keepTheSport, Vizsyn I really appreciate reading your posts, you can feel the enthusiasm you have for Alpine. The positive feel of your posts is infectious, keep them coming:)

Thank your for your great comments and insights Abrax, more food for thought for me as no matter how long you have been at the Alpine game the learning never stops.

keepTheSport, IMHO I would REALLY concentrate on 3 things when you are at the Fridge:

1) Get your hips and shoulders being in the PLUS position when you are performing your backside (heelside) turns. For me this is the number one thing for you to make an automatic mastered move. Your hips/shoulders on your frontside (toeside) turn look great.

2) I would also experiment with your back foot stance angle, just to make sure you are not hurting or injuring anything as you can't have much fun if you are hurt.

3) Boot Set Up - Get as much feed back from experience riders like Abrax with regards to proper fitting boots with a spring system that will make it possible for you to rotate, bend and move the way that is required with the technique you are in the process of mastering.

Don't forget the fun factor. IF you are training and trying so hard all the time, eventually take a break, free your mind from it and just ride in hard or soft boots as this is what it is all about; their is no correlation between having more fun and proper technique.

Hey, I sincerely hope I have helped here.
Cheers
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Re: Feedback on pics...sorry no video...

Postby keepTheSport » Monday 16 July 2012, 21:54

Hi

Abrax, I will have to try my boots on again (forgotten how to put them on :lol2: ) and work out how big they are. I have already bought some good sole inserts but if my foot gets raised any higher, my heel won't be in the heel cup :? I have not been in the mood to tackle putting the springs on in case I get-it-wrong :think: , then I'll have no boots :( I have seen some boots on ebay that are smaller and I shall be bidding for them. Then I'll be braver to try drilling holes etc.I shall revert - thanks:)

Rcrobar, you say such kind words 8O ..."keepTheSport, Vizsyn I really appreciate reading your posts, you can feel the enthusiasm you have for Alpine. The positive feel of your posts is infectious, keep them coming:)..."

I have been expecting a complete demolition of every pic (thick skinned enough to take it though or stupid enough :lol2: )..."enthusiasm"... I call it total OCD obsession :badgrin: Even if I was half as good as the people on this site :pray2: I would feel I've achieved such great heights.

Your practice advice is exactly what I was thinking. Get the body across the board on back side turn. I know how it feels on these turns, so I know I need to 'feel' my body turn more(cause I can't 'see' me). One question on the toe side pic. I thought that was wrong too :?: I thought my leading arm/shoulder be hanging over front edge of board ( making me look more Egyptian stance) :?: I feel the stance width is good. I shall definitely try other angles especially on rear leg. I am aware the forward flex is really hindering me and because I am so light (thought I was 54kg found out I am 46kg 8O blo*dy 'eck)I haven't got the force to bend the boots much :oops: (I'm sure springs will help) Anyway as an aside, Tali's advice on getting a 161S Extreme Carver seems more fitting after my weight update :o Plus if I get smaller boots they'll fit at steep angles on a 161.

I never forget the fun factor, all of it is fun to me, even when it's all going wrong, I know things will suddenly come together :D To me it's about being out there no matter the weather and conditions and always trying one more time-it's an addiction and IMHO not a bad one to have 8)

I agree this thread is made interesting having Vizsyn post too, sharing his learning curve and of course the advice from 2 wise experts with different styles of teaching :chinese: I can see the benefits in both, and I appear to use both depending on a)slope conditions/weather b)mental drive :wink:

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OCD Support Group:)

Postby rcrobar » Tuesday 17 July 2012, 0:43

Hi There

Your enthusiasm vs. OCD comment gave me a big grin, this obsession is why it is only a matter of time until you are laying out EC carves and helping the newbees of the future!

keepTheSport wrote:I thought my leading arm/shoulder be hanging over front edge of board ( making me look more Egyptian stance)

You toeside positioning is quite good, but I would not think about the leading arm or shoulder at all.

If I was going to be very picky or give ONE tip regarding the frontside/toeside turn, it would be specifically about your rear shoulder ... not even your rear arm, just the REAR shoulder.

In the one toeside picture your provided you appear to be about half way through your turn. By the time you are at the end of your turn, or in the transition phase, really concentrate on PUSHING or moving your rear shoulder so that it is OVER (or even past) the tail of your board.

When you push on your rear shoulder the front shoulder will almost always move to the correct position automatically. Think of moving your rear should as being very important in getting your body to the Egyptian or Minus position. Also think of moving your rear shoulder as a step in completely FINISHING your frontside turn.

The KEY here is that COMPLETELY finishing your frontside turn makes it MUCH easier to get into the PLUS position on your backside turn ... and this is the main thing I think this thread has decided you will start working on.

You see the only reason I know this is I have made the same mistake and obsessed about it a bit too much as well :wink:

Cheers
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Re: Feedback on pics...sorry no video...

Postby Abrax » Tuesday 17 July 2012, 7:15

Carvers do finish their turns, racers never do it!

There is one funny situation I've just reminded after reading this: "Think of moving your rear should as being very important in getting your body to the Egyptian or Minus position. Also think of moving your rear shoulder as a step in completely FINISHING your frontside turn."
Did you spot this? "think of"

Sometimes even if you think that a comment/ suggestion is weird or even out of nonsense, please try it anyway :) One thing observed here was our best instructor's aid.

The impression is somewhat like this:
"think about a coin in your left pocket"
you do it
and suddenly your left knee is working completely different !!!

I mean that a good instructor will have this ability to guide you in a way which will completely hide his/her real goals! (here it is not really hidden) And this should direct you to doing something you would never think of.
So no matter how weird instructions you get, they are usually all there to help you. (and definitely good tips now :-) )

Rob, this "weird feeling" is NOT about your comment :-) It was just similar style!

keepTheSport,
About the boots: In my case I've put a 1cm (one centimeter) felt pad in my liner and I am comfortable with MP28. I have very low and narrow feet and my MP is 27,5. The liner was first raised and THEN baked so I am comfortable with the ankles. But the truth is that I still ride one size too big boots.

About the photos: The truth is that the pics don't show anything bad, there are parts to improve, but you can say this about just anyone's movies or photos -> nobody's perfect (except russians ;) )
So let's go step by step and this is really not going to take ages!
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Tips & Tricks

Postby rcrobar » Tuesday 17 July 2012, 17:10

Abrax, I can completely relate to and understand your comments. It is VERY cool to see how a talented instructor, who is experienced in their particular sport, is able to apply little tips and tricks to explain a small detail of a VERY complicated movement.

I really enjoy picking up these teaching tips from others, especially those clever Swiss and Russian guys:) Very Cool!

Abrax wrote:Did you spot this? "think of"

Yeah, the shoulder tip was something I thought of while working with riders who were literally riding for their first time, doing their first ever turns!

What I noticed was the completely new rider often did not like being in the minus position going across the fall line, where their eyes are looking across or up the hill. For the new and nervous rider this is a 'blind' move in that they can't see down the hill, this freaks them out a bit even though the slope is almost flat. This caused the rider to want look down the hill, which then put their upper body in a counter rotated position because they did not seem to be able to separate their head and shoulder movement.

This head/upper body position (counter rotation) often caused the first time ever rider to be in the middle of a frontside turn, pointing straight down the fall line in a counter rotated, stuck or what I call 'hand cuffed' position where they are unable to finish their turn!

Over time I discovered that as I walked beside the new rider, who was stuck in a frontside, if I gently pushed their REAR shoulder into position for them, they would almost instantly finish their turn. As the lesson progressed if the reverted back to a counter rotated position I would then simply yell 'rear shoulder' they knew what to do because they had actually felt the movement earlier in the lesson.

For me personally as I get tired and find it harder to hold my body position, causing me to fall into a counter rotated position, the shoulder back trick worked for me as well.

What I thought was cool was how this tip seemed to work for riders at all stages of riding ability. Anyway, just another trick in the teaching bag ... this time from a Canuck :D

Cheers
Rob
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Re: Feedback on pics...sorry no video...

Postby keepTheSport » Tuesday 17 July 2012, 20:03

Hi rcrobar, Abrax

Reading your exchange of teaching posts is interesting due to the 'finer point' of detail. I learned to turn a snowboard across the fall-line by using toe and heel pressure, and this worked as long as I leaned forward with the down-hill momentum the board would suddenly sweep across the hill and up-phew!

As stated by rcrobar, bring the back shoulder over back of board (rather than think of front arm/shoulder). This is a good tip for me in particular because I have always used the front shoulder through to knee-foot for totally manipulating the board on/into toe-side manoeuvres. So when I try to use front shoulder for plus/minus movement in swiss style I still have very well trained pathways that want to do things the old way. This is probably why my upper body stops where it does in the pics. Whereas my back should has always just followed. So I think I can use my back shoulder to help re-train the front shoulder (if you see what I mean :think: ). This really is a good tip for me as it also brings in Abrax's way of just-do-it and forget-old-ways. The bonus with the back shoulder is I've never 'trained' it, so it is a completely new pathway to train :idea: I feel like this is a REVELATION :lol2:

Far from coming across as though I really understand this stuff :wink: , I have a question, rcrobar says:"...The KEY here is that COMPLETELY finishing your frontside turn makes it MUCH easier to get into the PLUS position on your backside turn ... "

....sorry to be so daft :silly: but how does it help :doh: Is it because of some kind of momentum that can be used switching from a - to + or vice versa...ain't quite visualizing the benefit of this one :wall:

As for my boots I'll try stuffing them with something Abrax :lol2: but at least I know someone here rides with slightly bigger boots and can still make it work... I hate to be one of those people that blames their boots for a bad turn :badgrin: ...

cheers again :bravo:
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Re: Feedback on pics...sorry no video...

Postby Abrax » Tuesday 17 July 2012, 20:53

:-) So nice thread!

Finishing turns, makes it much easier to control the speed as you finish one being (or at least you should having EC in mind) perpendicular to the slope's fall line.

This makes you start your backside turn with much less stress on the edge which helps so much to inclinate in a proper way. The disadvantage is the "blind" move is much more frustrating here.

But I'm having this feeling that Rob was having something else in mind.

Anyway this is probably a bit too early for Rob's style of learning but this is all you need to know about turning on the snowboard if you will decide to go my style ;) -> all has been written before -> check this as this is my favorite and also a brilliant thread ->>> viewtopic.php?f=7&t=453
www.carvingskills.com
580km in 3 hours and 5 minutes completely legal!!! I love german highways!!!
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Abrax
Swoard team
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Joined: Sunday 25 November 2007, 19:12
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