I'll be getting a board for this season. I've been renting for a while now and I'm sick of getting a newbieish board and beat-up boots. Hea, maybe it's just the place I'm renting from. Anyhow I would like to purchase some equipment with the focus more on the big mountain / freeride sector than the freestyle sector.
I'm currently looking at getting a Burton T6 and Burton Driver X or Salamon Malamute boots. Now just today I discovered (well, more like seriously looked into) "hard-boots" on snowboards and found out about the Swoard from hardbooter.com.
My Questions:
1. The DriverX is a very stiff boot, the Malamute pretty stiff (at least as far as soft boots go). Just how great is their inferiority to a good hard-boot? As in your "ability to apply edge pressure with the force and precision" and just over all total control of your board.
2. How would the T6 compare to the Swoard in slow speed carving? What about in higher speed carving like Bordy described?
3. And though perhaps this is not the best place to ask this question, how the the T6 perform in high speed sectors ? (Like compared to an alpine board with hard boots).
Simply put, I would like to know what I can not do with this T6, soft-boot setup to help me make the call whether or not I should consider or alter this setup, purchase something else, or purchase something in addition to this setup for other parameters this setup does not excel in.
Thanks for the help!
DrCR
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Buying a board for this season. Questions, please comment!
Moderators: fivat, rilliet, Arnaud, nils
-
nils
- Swoard founder
- Posts: 3043
- Joined: Friday 22 March 2002, 19:22
- Location: Lyon, France - Swoard team
- Contact:
Hello there
Hard boot set up will help you put a much higher pressure, and also be able to control much more precision on where u want to press the edge etc....
I've never ridden the T-6, the last freeride board i tried was the Arbor A-Frame wich is also stiff... I tried to do a few low carves on it, but the softboots made it hard for me, especially on the backside with the boot beeing to soft and did not give enough support...
Yes a good stiff freeride board like the T-6, the A-frame ( cheaper and looks neat to my opinion ( T-6 is also too much marketing for me ), or a boardercross board like the Eliminator from F2 will get you as close as it can be in softboots to carving....
But! its still softboots and a rounded nose that is not design to guide the board in a carve! The main differences beeing also the flex, the sidecuts, the effective edge length etc !
This winter i'll try to get myself a pair of stiff flow's with good stiff boots to put on a Swoard and try to see where we can go !
Nils
I've never ridden the T-6, the last freeride board i tried was the Arbor A-Frame wich is also stiff... I tried to do a few low carves on it, but the softboots made it hard for me, especially on the backside with the boot beeing to soft and did not give enough support...
Yes a good stiff freeride board like the T-6, the A-frame ( cheaper and looks neat to my opinion ( T-6 is also too much marketing for me ), or a boardercross board like the Eliminator from F2 will get you as close as it can be in softboots to carving....
But! its still softboots and a rounded nose that is not design to guide the board in a carve! The main differences beeing also the flex, the sidecuts, the effective edge length etc !
This winter i'll try to get myself a pair of stiff flow's with good stiff boots to put on a Swoard and try to see where we can go !
Nils
I just got done reading over www.alpinecarving.com site pretty throughly. Makes you wonder why anyone is using a rounded edge snowboard and soft boots at all lol! 
I'm looking at an Donek Axis and the Prior 4WD now.
That Eliminator board design looks nice, though the same can not be said concerning the topsheet imho. Just realized aplinecarving has it on its recommended BX boards list.
What soft-boots were you using when you tried the A-Frame? Is there any advantage to softboots at all (excluding park freestyle)? Why are softboots more popular than hardboots? Purely asthetics?!
DrCR
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I'm looking at an Donek Axis and the Prior 4WD now. That Eliminator board design looks nice, though the same can not be said concerning the topsheet imho. Just realized aplinecarving has it on its recommended BX boards list.
What soft-boots were you using when you tried the A-Frame? Is there any advantage to softboots at all (excluding park freestyle)? Why are softboots more popular than hardboots? Purely asthetics?!
DrCR
__________
-
nils
- Swoard founder
- Posts: 3043
- Joined: Friday 22 March 2002, 19:22
- Location: Lyon, France - Swoard team
- Contact:
Softs vs hard
i tried the a-frame with SIS rossignol system and boots ( cannot remember but it was a SIS system)
Donek Axis or Prior 4WD: the missing link between hard and softboot world, but u will need to use hardboots on them !
As for why people prefer softies... very long story that took place in early 90's...
- hard boots were not as comfy as now, softies were lighter and comfy
- hard boots meant alpine boards and alpine boards need a better level to ride it
- hard boots meant "ski like " and at the time softboots was about having an attitude and be a rebel
etc etc....
this explain why carving/ alpine world is so small, and also why its basically unknown...You get the same great feelings carving low on hard pack in hardboots that rinding softies in the powder, it just needs a much better riding level to achieve the carving
Nils
Donek Axis or Prior 4WD: the missing link between hard and softboot world, but u will need to use hardboots on them !
As for why people prefer softies... very long story that took place in early 90's...
- hard boots were not as comfy as now, softies were lighter and comfy
- hard boots meant alpine boards and alpine boards need a better level to ride it
- hard boots meant "ski like " and at the time softboots was about having an attitude and be a rebel
etc etc....
this explain why carving/ alpine world is so small, and also why its basically unknown...You get the same great feelings carving low on hard pack in hardboots that rinding softies in the powder, it just needs a much better riding level to achieve the carving
Nils
Interesting. I just read the Hardboots in powder in the Off Piste forum. Looks like I would indeed need an additional setup if I spend any time in Colorado of some place with lots of power then.
How 'extreme" could I carve on something like the Axis or the Prior compared to the Swoard (I feel I can ask this here as the Swoard is out of production right now)?
Thanks for all the help!
DrCR
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How 'extreme" could I carve on something like the Axis or the Prior compared to the Swoard (I feel I can ask this here as the Swoard is out of production right now)?
Thanks for all the help!
DrCR
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All Mountain
Hi DrCr
Watch the end section of the movie ‘Stoked’ It shows Jacques and Patrice doing regular push-pull rotation style turns. This is the type of riding that an All Mountain board is best suited for, the advantage being that you can make turns like this in almost any snow conditions. The toe side support of hardboots and the edge hold of an All Mountain board will make these kinds of turns effortless.
It is possible to do one or two fully laid out turns on an All Mountain board, but the sidecuts are generally too tight (10M range) causing you to loose a lot of speed. Also, the edge hold is not nearly as good as a Swoard, especially in harder snow conditions.
The All Mountain boards from Coiler, Prior and Donek are the bread and butter for many plate/hardboot riders. You can’t go wrong buying anyone of these boards. Buy the softest hardboots you can find, Raichle SB 413 are an inexpensive way to try hardboots for the first time, and an All Mountain board and you will not regret your purchase.
If I was going to buy another All Mountain board, I would recommend spending the extra $50-$100 dollars to have the board made with a wider waist. Match up the stance angles you like, your boot size and the boards’ waist width. In my case, 23cm wide to match my big feet and preference for lower stance angles.
Hope this helps.
Rob
Watch the end section of the movie ‘Stoked’ It shows Jacques and Patrice doing regular push-pull rotation style turns. This is the type of riding that an All Mountain board is best suited for, the advantage being that you can make turns like this in almost any snow conditions. The toe side support of hardboots and the edge hold of an All Mountain board will make these kinds of turns effortless.
It is possible to do one or two fully laid out turns on an All Mountain board, but the sidecuts are generally too tight (10M range) causing you to loose a lot of speed. Also, the edge hold is not nearly as good as a Swoard, especially in harder snow conditions.
The All Mountain boards from Coiler, Prior and Donek are the bread and butter for many plate/hardboot riders. You can’t go wrong buying anyone of these boards. Buy the softest hardboots you can find, Raichle SB 413 are an inexpensive way to try hardboots for the first time, and an All Mountain board and you will not regret your purchase.
If I was going to buy another All Mountain board, I would recommend spending the extra $50-$100 dollars to have the board made with a wider waist. Match up the stance angles you like, your boot size and the boards’ waist width. In my case, 23cm wide to match my big feet and preference for lower stance angles.
Hope this helps.
Rob
My shoe size is ~9US, (~42 Euro, at least in my Birks). What's your shoe size such that you would recommend a 23cm width? What cm width would you recommend for me?
Ah, OK I see. I could do the type of deal in the 'Stoked' movie, but not really the type of tighter, linked turns seen in the 'preview (opus2)' which would be just too tight, right? Also, I just realized the board in 'preview' is brown like the Axis, not red! Was that footage taken with the Swoard prototype?
What is the sidecut of the Swoard?
I thought you wanted really stiff hard-boots, not soft ones. Perhaps that's for alpine racing? I thought all Raichles were branded under the Deeluxe lable (link). What gives? Oh, and wouldn’t getting soft hard-boots kind of be defeating the purpose? Why not just use stiff soft-boots? Toe-edge?
On the side, Fivat and Rillet were using what boots, does anyone know?
Thanks rcrobar!
DrCR
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Small little dude at 5'6" (168cm), Shoe: 42, Weight: 145lbs. (66kg)
Ah, OK I see. I could do the type of deal in the 'Stoked' movie, but not really the type of tighter, linked turns seen in the 'preview (opus2)' which would be just too tight, right? Also, I just realized the board in 'preview' is brown like the Axis, not red! Was that footage taken with the Swoard prototype?
What is the sidecut of the Swoard?
I thought you wanted really stiff hard-boots, not soft ones. Perhaps that's for alpine racing? I thought all Raichles were branded under the Deeluxe lable (link). What gives? Oh, and wouldn’t getting soft hard-boots kind of be defeating the purpose? Why not just use stiff soft-boots? Toe-edge?
On the side, Fivat and Rillet were using what boots, does anyone know?
Thanks rcrobar!
DrCR
________
Small little dude at 5'6" (168cm), Shoe: 42, Weight: 145lbs. (66kg)
Hi DrCR
Rather than going into several long answers here I'm going to give you a few links to read, I think they will help explain things a bit.
viewtopic.php?t=26
https://www.extremecarving.com/swoard/choose.html
https://www.extremecarving.com/swoard/board.html
https://www.extremecarving.com/tech/mat.html
I wouldn't rule out stiff soft boots, I think it is a matter of where and how you want to ride. Try to evaluate the type of runs and type of snow conditions you see most often. This is what an All Mountain board has addressed, this is why they are a favorite board for many.
Hope I am not making things worse here.
Rob
Rather than going into several long answers here I'm going to give you a few links to read, I think they will help explain things a bit.
What cm width would you recommend for me?
viewtopic.php?t=26
https://www.extremecarving.com/swoard/choose.html
The brown board is 95% the same as the Swoard, it is the EC guys original proto board. The Swoard is an industrial replica of the proto.Also, I just realized the board in 'preview' is brown like the Axis, not red! Was that footage taken with the Swoard prototype?
viewtopic.php?t=9What is the sidecut of the Swoard?
https://www.extremecarving.com/swoard/board.html
On the side, Fivat and Rillet were using what boots, does anyone know?
https://www.extremecarving.com/tech/mat.html
Using really stiff hard-boots is very responsive, but it is also very unforgiving of mistakes. The softest hard boots are still much more supportive than the stiffest soft boot. Using a softer hard boot makes for a more forgiving and versatile ride, much like an All Mountain board vs a race board.I thought you wanted really stiff hard-boots, not soft ones. Perhaps that's for alpine racing? Wouldn’t getting soft hard-boots kind of be defeating the purpose? Why not just use stiff soft-boots? Toe-edge?
I wouldn't rule out stiff soft boots, I think it is a matter of where and how you want to ride. Try to evaluate the type of runs and type of snow conditions you see most often. This is what an All Mountain board has addressed, this is why they are a favorite board for many.
Hope I am not making things worse here.
Rob
Oooh, links. Awesome, thanks! I have some reading to do. 
I looked over http://www.boardreviews.com/reviews/sno ... frames.htm and I'm really liking the Donek Axis all the more. It seems to be an excellent compromise of alpine to freeride. Now I just have to look into the Prior. Coiler is out as I'm really too small for them (may I could get a ladies...um, nope!)
Do you know off hand if I could ride the Axis with soft boots? Just curious if you could.
DrCR
________
I looked over http://www.boardreviews.com/reviews/sno ... frames.htm and I'm really liking the Donek Axis all the more. It seems to be an excellent compromise of alpine to freeride. Now I just have to look into the Prior. Coiler is out as I'm really too small for them (may I could get a ladies...um, nope!)
Do you know off hand if I could ride the Axis with soft boots? Just curious if you could.
DrCR
________
Softboots on an All Mountain
Hi DrCR
My feeling is yes ..... but, most of the All mountain boards have a 21cm waist. With soft boots and size 9 feet ‘boot out’ or ‘toe drag’ becomes a real issue. (I have been assuming, from your previous posts, you will be using lower-traditional free ride stance angles.) This is why I recommended a wider version of the Donek. Also the carve-ability of an All Mountain board begs for the power that hard boots can deliver to the edge.
Hey, I hope the links help. Check out Nils’ site while your surfin’
www.swallowtails.org
After you buy an All Mountain board, be ready to buy a swallowtail and Swoard. These 3 boards are the basis for a quiver many would love to have.
Cheers
Rob
PS - Buy a set of hard boots, you will really enjoy all they have to offer:)
Do you know off hand if I could ride the Axis with soft boots? Just curious if you could.
My feeling is yes ..... but, most of the All mountain boards have a 21cm waist. With soft boots and size 9 feet ‘boot out’ or ‘toe drag’ becomes a real issue. (I have been assuming, from your previous posts, you will be using lower-traditional free ride stance angles.) This is why I recommended a wider version of the Donek. Also the carve-ability of an All Mountain board begs for the power that hard boots can deliver to the edge.
Hey, I hope the links help. Check out Nils’ site while your surfin’
www.swallowtails.org
After you buy an All Mountain board, be ready to buy a swallowtail and Swoard. These 3 boards are the basis for a quiver many would love to have.
Cheers
Rob
PS - Buy a set of hard boots, you will really enjoy all they have to offer:)
Oh yeah, I've been all over that swallowtail site already.
Found another swallowtail site inadvertently (link) from this link just a little while ago. Not sure if you are already familiar with it.
Stance wise, on the freeride boards I've used in the past I've naturally used std. stance angles. I guess I'm just a little unsure on how much I'm willing to 'skew' my feet from perpendicular to the board.
What do you think of the Deeluxe Suzuka boots? Still though, it would probably be unwise for me to buy them. I'll probably go with the ones you mentioned before for now and get super stiff ones if I want to go that route. Also, what bindings would you recommend? (btw, you've talked me into going hard boot).
I'm a bit concerned if I'm too light for the Axis 167 though. I'm at a scrawny ~140lbs. now due to, well, life. Lost a lot of muscle mass since I really haven't done any physical exercise at all in six months. Being an Information Technologies tech doesn't give you much exercise other than lifting 21" CRTs every once in a while and being an upperclassman pure science major doesn't exactly give you much free time lol. Used to play soccer among other sports and do a little gym but not now that I'm an upperclassman. On that note, I really should get back to the books…and maybe pump some iron. My uni society’s arm-wrestling finals are Friday. I better get ready if I want to hold my <180lbs. category crown!
Will check back in first change I get.
DrCR
________
Found another swallowtail site inadvertently (link) from this link just a little while ago. Not sure if you are already familiar with it.
Stance wise, on the freeride boards I've used in the past I've naturally used std. stance angles. I guess I'm just a little unsure on how much I'm willing to 'skew' my feet from perpendicular to the board.
What do you think of the Deeluxe Suzuka boots? Still though, it would probably be unwise for me to buy them. I'll probably go with the ones you mentioned before for now and get super stiff ones if I want to go that route. Also, what bindings would you recommend? (btw, you've talked me into going hard boot).
I'm a bit concerned if I'm too light for the Axis 167 though. I'm at a scrawny ~140lbs. now due to, well, life. Lost a lot of muscle mass since I really haven't done any physical exercise at all in six months. Being an Information Technologies tech doesn't give you much exercise other than lifting 21" CRTs every once in a while and being an upperclassman pure science major doesn't exactly give you much free time lol. Used to play soccer among other sports and do a little gym but not now that I'm an upperclassman. On that note, I really should get back to the books…and maybe pump some iron. My uni society’s arm-wrestling finals are Friday. I better get ready if I want to hold my <180lbs. category crown!
Will check back in first change I get.
DrCR
________
Welcome to the Community
Hi DrCr
I’m going to take my best shot with regards to advice. I hope it is helpful.
Board
Sounds like you have decided on the Donek Axis, good choice. I would contact Sean at Donek to determine the best board length for your height and weight. I also still like the idea of getting this board made 23 cm at the waist for you, as it eliminate boot out with your lower stance angles and will give you more float in the powder. This is also pretty common width for BX boards and it will work great when experimenting with completely laid out turns. This said, the stock 21.5cm waist width will also work great.
Boots
The Raichle SB 413, I’m pretty sure, the most flexible hard boots out there. Many back country split board riders chose this boots as a result. It is also the most economical for the first time buyer. Raichle cuts corners on the liner, so you may want to buy a thermoflex liner to improve the fit and comfort later on. When you first start using your hard boots use them in the walk mode, this means to flick the lever at the back of the boot down. This will ease the transition from soft to hard boots. As you get more accustomed to the feel of your new boots, board and bindings, experiment with the lever both up and down.
Bindings
Step in or Standard toe bail? I would lean towards the Raichle X-Bone step-in, you need to add an Intec heel to your boots. The knock against high end step-ins is that they are too stiff laterally. The combination of the SB 413 boot and the X-Bone will give you the movement you need when starting out on hardboots. At the same time they will be strong enough for your 140 pound frame. You will like convenience of getting in and out of the step ins, without sitting down. No toe bail will help reduce boot out when using low angles.
Stance Angles
I would start with something like 28F and 12 R. These were the late great Craig Kelly's freeride stance angles at one time. I have started many a first time hardbooter with these settings and have had a lot of success. Work your way up , gradually, to the low to mid 40’s on the front and mid 30’s to low 40’s on the back (ie 45F 40R). I would recommend riding the bindings flat on the board to start with, no cants or lifts.
Stance Width
This is much more critical with hard boots, too wide and your thighs will scream for mercy, too narrow and you will feel like you are falling in the back seat all the time. A great tip I picked up here is to multiply your inseam pant length by decimal six (ie 32 inch inseam x .6 = 19.2 inches would be your stance width).
One Stop Shopping www.Bomberonline.com
Talk to Michelle or Fin at Bomber, see if they give you similar advice as I have:) You will be able to buy most of these goodies from them. Maybe they will install the Intec heels onto the boots for you. Don’t tell them Rob sent you or you will have to pay double:)
Get a second opinion
Also, a while ago I followed this Bomber thread. I found it very interesting hearing the advice of many knowledgeable and experienced riders. Give it a read, I think it might also help you figure things out.
http://www.bomberonline.com/VBulletin/s ... eadid=2966
Welcome to the carving community!
Rob
I’m going to take my best shot with regards to advice. I hope it is helpful.
Board
Sounds like you have decided on the Donek Axis, good choice. I would contact Sean at Donek to determine the best board length for your height and weight. I also still like the idea of getting this board made 23 cm at the waist for you, as it eliminate boot out with your lower stance angles and will give you more float in the powder. This is also pretty common width for BX boards and it will work great when experimenting with completely laid out turns. This said, the stock 21.5cm waist width will also work great.
Boots
The Raichle SB 413, I’m pretty sure, the most flexible hard boots out there. Many back country split board riders chose this boots as a result. It is also the most economical for the first time buyer. Raichle cuts corners on the liner, so you may want to buy a thermoflex liner to improve the fit and comfort later on. When you first start using your hard boots use them in the walk mode, this means to flick the lever at the back of the boot down. This will ease the transition from soft to hard boots. As you get more accustomed to the feel of your new boots, board and bindings, experiment with the lever both up and down.
Bindings
Step in or Standard toe bail? I would lean towards the Raichle X-Bone step-in, you need to add an Intec heel to your boots. The knock against high end step-ins is that they are too stiff laterally. The combination of the SB 413 boot and the X-Bone will give you the movement you need when starting out on hardboots. At the same time they will be strong enough for your 140 pound frame. You will like convenience of getting in and out of the step ins, without sitting down. No toe bail will help reduce boot out when using low angles.
Stance Angles
I would start with something like 28F and 12 R. These were the late great Craig Kelly's freeride stance angles at one time. I have started many a first time hardbooter with these settings and have had a lot of success. Work your way up , gradually, to the low to mid 40’s on the front and mid 30’s to low 40’s on the back (ie 45F 40R). I would recommend riding the bindings flat on the board to start with, no cants or lifts.
Stance Width
This is much more critical with hard boots, too wide and your thighs will scream for mercy, too narrow and you will feel like you are falling in the back seat all the time. A great tip I picked up here is to multiply your inseam pant length by decimal six (ie 32 inch inseam x .6 = 19.2 inches would be your stance width).
One Stop Shopping www.Bomberonline.com
Talk to Michelle or Fin at Bomber, see if they give you similar advice as I have:) You will be able to buy most of these goodies from them. Maybe they will install the Intec heels onto the boots for you. Don’t tell them Rob sent you or you will have to pay double:)
Get a second opinion
Also, a while ago I followed this Bomber thread. I found it very interesting hearing the advice of many knowledgeable and experienced riders. Give it a read, I think it might also help you figure things out.
http://www.bomberonline.com/VBulletin/s ... eadid=2966
Welcome to the carving community!
Rob
Re: Welcome to the Community
Thanks Rob, I owe you.rcrobar wrote:Welcome to the carving community!
Rob
DrCR
________
Raichle SB 413
http://www.bomberonline.com/store/boots ... sb_413.cfm
http://www.bomberonline.com/store/boots ... liners.pdf
http://www.bomberonline.com/store/boots ... liners.pdf
Would you recommend footbeds or nothing (just the boot liners)? Perhaps some birkenstock corks?
http://www.bomberonline.com/store/boots ... sb_413.cfm
http://www.bomberonline.com/store/boots ... liners.pdf
http://www.bomberonline.com/store/boots ... liners.pdf
Would you recommend footbeds or nothing (just the boot liners)? Perhaps some birkenstock corks?
Foot Beds
Hi DrCR
I think what you will find the 413’s liner will pack out quicker and the stitching will not be as durable, when compared to a more expensive liner. So the issue is more durability rather than comfort.
As far as foot beds, I can’t help you here. I have always used a standard felt liner. I have not had any issues with my feet, so I haven’t bothered with a foot bed.
I have read guys who say you are crazy not to use a custom foot bed, they just love them.
Can anybody in the forum comment on this?
Rob
I think what you will find the 413’s liner will pack out quicker and the stitching will not be as durable, when compared to a more expensive liner. So the issue is more durability rather than comfort.
As far as foot beds, I can’t help you here. I have always used a standard felt liner. I have not had any issues with my feet, so I haven’t bothered with a foot bed.
I have read guys who say you are crazy not to use a custom foot bed, they just love them.
Can anybody in the forum comment on this?
Rob